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08-20-2008, 01:32 PM   #16
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The K200D and K10D are far more similar than different, really. I personally chose the K200D for a few reasons, roughly in this order of importances

1. K200D is enough smaller & lighter to matter to me

2. I hate the whole *idea* of proprietary batteries; K200D takes AA and works well with them

3. K200D has a significantly quieter shutter

4. K200D is a current model and thus more likely to receive firmware updates

In the K10D's favor were a somewhat nicer viewfinder and the extra controls. It took some playing with both in the store to convince myself that K200D viewfinder was still more than adequate (and *much* better than most of the competition). I already knew form experience with the *istDS that I really didn't cafe about the extra controls except for one: the ability to set ISO without taking my eye off the viewfinder. That's the *only* respect in which I feel I made a small sacrifice, but for me, it was worth it to get the other things mentioned above. Others prefer Li-Ion batteries, bigger cameras, and care about having buttons for changing settings I never change, or have a hard time with the wheel + button combination needed to set aperture with automatic exposure lenses on the K200D.

Note the K200D has some other advantage I *didn't* care about, such as supposedly better quality if you are so willing to put up with shooting JPEG instead of RAW, a "dust alert" feature that as far as I can tell does not work as reliably as simply shooting the sky at f/22, and a pixel-mapping feature that seems irrelevant when shooting RAW. It is also claimed that the different ADC and image processing engine is such that even when shooting RAW, the K200D may get better results, but I can't prove this, and it didn't factor into my decision.

08-20-2008, 02:01 PM   #17
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a comment i would like to make about AA's vs lithiums

after going from a K100D with eneloops to a K20D with its supplied battery i can tell you with full honesty that having a Lithium unit is bettter,

more pictures
more consistent
faster charge times
easier reload and storage (ever try to juggle 8 batteries in your bag?)

are they more expensive? sure, but from a utilitarian point of view the marginal cost of a couple of extra lithiums pales in comparison to the rest of the junk that we buy.
08-20-2008, 02:28 PM   #18
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K10D's are fast running out here in the UK. So I suggest find one and buy one. It has more features than the K200D
08-20-2008, 04:01 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
obviously you are not familiar with the citrus juice/powerrade/onion trick of energy extraction
either that or he hasn't heard of small solar panel rechargers.

Honestly, if he is that far in the jungle, AA batteries won't help either, because there will be no store. In that case, might I suggest some rolls of film, and my KX, and seconic light meter. this combo = batteries not required

08-20-2008, 04:36 PM   #20
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Paddy,
I can see only two advantages of the K200D over the K10D. The 200 uses AA batteries and you can find them anywhere. You can't always find a place or the time to charge a OEM battery. The other issue is that the 200 is lighter and more compact. AA batteries can be a life saver.

Dave
08-20-2008, 04:49 PM   #21
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You should be able to find a K10D for significantly less than a K200D if you're willing to get one thats used, but like new condition. I bought my GX-10 (samsung k10d clone) kit here on the forums for $500 with extra battery, 8gb sd chip and 3 year warranty about a month ago, was only used for 3 months and came in new condition.
08-20-2008, 04:54 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Big Dave Quote
Paddy,
I can see only two advantages of the K200D over the K10D. The 200 uses AA batteries and you can find them anywhere. You can't always find a place or the time to charge a OEM battery. The other issue is that the 200 is lighter and more compact. AA batteries can be a life saver.

Dave
have you ever used generic AA's in your K100/200D ??

they die within 100 shots.
08-20-2008, 06:31 PM   #23
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FWIW, this is all personal opinion, so no biggie if people differ on these issue.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
more pictures
I get hundreds on my Eneloops and only need to recharge at most once a week. So even if I could get even more pictures with Li-Ion, I get so so many with AA that this is just a non-issue. If I only got 80 shots per charge, now that would be a problem. But getting 600 is not a problem

QuoteQuote:
more consistent
For the first year or two, maybe. Although again, Eneloops are good enough that the difference in practice is negligible - I've *never* had an Eneloop let me down in any way whatsoever. But after a couple of years, those Li-Ion batteries start getting increasingly unreliable and need to replaced.

QuoteQuote:
faster charge times
Again, given that I can charge in an hour or two, and in practice I normally do it overnight (I virtually *never* run out of juice and need to charge on short notice - normally I recharge at my own leisure), I guess I fail to see this as a problem in need of a solution.

QuoteQuote:
easier reload and storage (ever try to juggle 8 batteries in your bag?)
I only carry four, and only need to use them them maybe once every few months. I just never exhaust my Eneloops. So once again, even if it's a very minor nuisance a few times a year, this just isn't a problem.

So yes, Li-Ion may be better in these ways, but it's not like AA's are bad enough that solving the problem gains you much if anything.

On the other hand, balance this against the fact that I've got about 20 devices that take rechargeable batteries. Most of the devices are long discontinued but work just fine - except the batteries have died and I can no longer get the proprietary battery they require. Or I can, but they cost $20-$150 *each*. Add to this the hassle of having 20 different chargers or special cables to keep track and find room for, and of course the ever-popular problem where your batteries run out while on the road and you need a quick replacement.

Sorry, been there, done that. Given a choice between a device taking standardized battery like AA and one requiring a proprietary battery, I'll choose the standardized battery every time unless there are are really compelling reasons not to. The difference in performance would be more compelling if AA's presented a problem, but they don't.

08-20-2008, 06:33 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
have you ever used generic AA's in your K100/200D ??
Well, yes, and the bottom of a Coke bottle makes a terrible lens. But you wouldn't use a Coke bottle as a lens, and you wouldn't use generic AA's in your camera when there are much better options available at any drug store in the world.
08-20-2008, 07:13 PM   #25
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Juggling AA batteries sucks. Sorry, but I'll take the compact battery pack over AA's any day.

Just my preference...

c[_]
08-20-2008, 09:03 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by PaddyB Quote
I'm looking for my first SLR .... I wouldn't mind a few decent auto modes to get me started until I've really dug into the camera. I have heard the K10D is quirky and has a bit of a learning curve. Not sure if thats a curse or a blessing...might help me learn the basics of SLR photography better. Or will it just give me endless headaches? All in all, I want a reliable, well-built camera that takes excellent image quality outdoor photos in a variety of light. The K10D seems like a helluva lot of camera for the money right now, and quite a few shops here in Taipei still have them.

OK, you have a couple of different questions here.

First, Pentax vs the competition. Too big a subject to go into here. I am pretty sure that, if I were buying my first DSLR today but could do so with all the knowledge I've acquired in the last couple of years, I'd either be buying Pentax or going with Nikon (not the D60, but maybe the D80, which doesn't cost much more and is MUCH better). The Nikon D80 is about the same age as the Pentax K10D, perhaps a bit older, but age doesn't matter here. Both are excellent cameras. Just my take (without my reasons).


Second, if you do decide to go with Pentax, should you get the K200D or the K10D? Simple: Get the K10D. The K200D is simply a handicapped K10D.

K10D has two e-dials. Major.

K10D has TAv mode. Terrific.

K10D lacks the scene modes. This is an advantage, not a disadvantage. If you really feel the need for the scene modes, stick with the point and shoot. This is not condescension. I'm very fond of compact cameras: they can take really good photos. You don't buy a DSLR - at least not your first DSLR - to take better photos. Many new DSLR users, looking at their first results, actually feel that their expensive new camera takes WORSE photos than their high-end old fixed-lens camera. You buy a DSLR because you want to take control of your photography. Of course, by taking control, you hope to take better photos. But you don't get better photos automatically just because you spent more money on the camera.

K10D has hypermanual mode. I disparage the scene modes, but I don't disparage this great feature that lets you stay in complete control - and yet makes things easy.

The K10D has a great battery. Get a spare and keep 'em charged and you'll never run out of power. NOTE: When I first upgraded from the K100D to the K10D, about the only thing that I was nervous about was losing the ability to use AA batteries. I have changed my mind about this completely. I wish I could get a single proprietary battery for my flash units!

I've said it here before but I think it bears repeating. The K10D is not harder than the K200D or K100D. The K10D is easier to use - provided you actually WANT to be in control. That's one of the advantages of a higher-priced camera. DSLRs are easier to control than point and shoots, because the controls on a point and shoot are buried in menus, while on a DSLR they're often right out on the body where you can get to 'em quickly. The K10D is not even harder to learn. Put it in P (hypermanual) mode when you take it out of the box and stick with that mode while you figure out a few of the other features.

Will
08-20-2008, 10:02 PM   #27
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The same question I had three months ago... K200d vs K10d. And the winner was... K10D
1. 98% of the shooting time my eyes look through the viewfinder and it is a way better in K10D

2. Lithium vs AA (even not in jungles). Bought one spare lithium with a charger that has "cigarette ligher" adapter that you may find in every car and that's it! You may not find a power outlet in the jungle or even a store to buy AA but there will be a car to get there

3. Scenes... Now I agree with WMBP that "presets" are more to be of disadvantage. BTW K10D has a "green" mode to shoot in auto.

three months ago... standing near the counter... 5 minutes left and the store will close its door... K10D
08-21-2008, 03:15 AM   #28
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I was also thinking between K200D and K10D. And I choosed K10D. It's also my first dSLR and I know I was right. Having scene modes is not some advantage. Actually, of all scene modes, only nihgt ones make some sence since it's not always easy to choose right shutter speed for night shots. Everything else is easy to get by PP or directly while shooting. Portrati mode chooses bigger aperture - as you can by choosing it manually. Landscape mode chooses smaller aperture and gives more vivid colors - as you can by setting small aperture and add some saturation on computer. Macro - maybe the most stupid scene mode on SLR since it's just matter of focusing and getting close to subject! I passed all of that on my previous cameras (Canon A75 & S3 IS) and I don't miss them on K10D at all! It even makes me learn faster because all those scene modes are making half of your job, and I want to do it by myself. It could take some more time, but it makes you learn something, and able to get used on any camera in a few moments
08-21-2008, 07:10 AM   #29
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batteries

Somewhere recently (probably here, but I can't remember) I remarked that batteries are almost a religious issue. And it's true. People almost invariably defend - and defend rather energetically - whatever it is they depend on. This leads me to suspect that, to a considerable degree, everybody is right on this one.

And the basic truth is probably this: When you buy a camera, the type of batteries it usees probably ought to be the least important factor for you to consider, even less important than whether it uses SD cards or CF cards. What matters is how the camera works once you power it on (however you do that) and what kinds of photos it captures (on whatever kind of card).

The K10D was the first digital camera I bought that did not use AA batteries. As I said, I was not happy about that; I bought the camera anyway, and the batteries that the K10D uses are now either a non-issue for me or an advantage for the K10D (and K20D).

But if it is an advantage, it's a small one. Marc Sabatella has described the advantages of using really good AAs like Eneloops. (Is there anything else like Eneloops, by the way?) And I am sure he's right. If I could afford to buy a Nikon D700, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, even if I discovered that it used AA batteries. Or AAA batteries. Or 9V batteries. It's just not the key issue.

Will
08-21-2008, 09:11 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Somewhere recently (probably here, but I can't remember) I remarked that batteries are almost a religious issue. And it's true. People almost invariably defend - and defend rather energetically - whatever it is they depend on. This leads me to suspect that, to a considerable degree, everybody is right on this one.
Absolutely. Which is a good thing, really. Both sides can give their perfectly legitimate reasons for their preferences, and then the reader can decide for himself which arguments resonate more with him, or if it ends up being a non-issue, which I suspect it really is to most people.

Actually, of all the potential downsides to AA that others have mentioned, there is really only one that carries even the *slightest* weight with me, and it is literally that: weight. AA's are heavier than Li-Ion for a given amount of voltage / capacity. Well, I don't know if that's *always* true, but no denying it is for the K200D versus K10D. Less so if you use non-rechargeable Lithium AA, but Eneloops are not the lightest batteries on the block. I'm surprised more people haven't pointed that out. But of course, since the K10D itself is heavier than the K200D, the latter is still the lighter camera overall, by a significant enough margin (when combined with size) that *this* was really the biggest factor in my own decision.

QuoteQuote:
When you buy a camera, the type of batteries it usees probably ought to be the least important factor for you to consider, even less important than whether it uses SD cards or CF cards.
Well, it's not *really* high on the list, but give how similar the K10D and K200D really are, the few remaining differences increase in significance. if you don't already subscribe to a religion on the battery issue, great. Otherwise, the battery type can end up being one of the more significant differentiators.

QuoteQuote:
The K10D was the first digital camera I bought that did not use AA batteries.
Other way around for me. My first digital camera took a proprietary battery. By then I had already having cultivated a loathing for proprietary batteries from countless cordless telephones, laptop computers, recording devices, and other gadgets that were sitting unused in my basement for no reason other than the fact that their batteries had died and it was impossible or impractical to get replacement batteries for them. I put up with yet another proprietary battery on my first digital camera because I was sold on its other features / specs, and at the time, there were not a *ton* of choices. And realistically, at the time, AA technology was not what it is today, so there was good reason to avoid AA back then for devices like this.

By the time I got my DS in 2005, though, technology had matured to the point where AA's already performed better for me than the Li-Ion batery in my first digital camera. And since the introduction of the Eneloop, there is just no going back for me.

Oh, and that first digital camera of mine is sitting in the basement, unusable because neither the battery it came with nor the spare I bought a year or later can hold a charge, and it's not worth it to me to buy yet another proprietary battery for it.

QuoteQuote:
Is there anything else like Eneloops, by the way?
The Uniross Hybrio for one. Perhaps others.
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