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08-21-2008, 09:33 AM   #31
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Really, I'm not trying to convince anyone that the K200D really is superior in any objective sense. Clearly, it is not. It is indeed stripped down in some ways, and the things it provides that could be considered advantages definitely are subjective. I'm just trying to point that some of the claimed clear objective advantages of the K10D are not as big as is sometimes claimed.

QuoteQuote:
K10D has two e-dials. Major.
As I have said before, I certainly agree two is better than one, if it can be done without adding bulk or weight. But given this *is* the tradeoff one has to mke, then it becomes worthwhile to really examine just how much a difference the second wheel makes. In the auto exposure modes, you don't need but one dial (controls shutter speed in Tv, aperture in Av, etc). And in M mode - which is where I am 99% of the time - it just isn't that hard to hit the Av button to get the dial to set aperture.

If you're already accustomed to two dials, I'm sure it would drive you crazy to go back to one. But if you're used to it, it really seems like no big deal. Certainly a much smaller issue than battery type *if* you're religious about the latter. That is, if you offer me the choice between keeping my K200D as is, or giving me a second wheel but forcing me to take a proprietary battery, I'd keep it as is. OK, so maybe that goes beyond religion and into zealotry, but again, I just want to remind people that these things *are* subjective, and there is room for intelligent people to have different opinions.

QuoteQuote:
K10D lacks the scene modes. This is an advantage, not a disadvantage.
I'd call it neither - it's a complete non-issue. If you don't use them - and I'd certainly recommend against using them - then whether they are present makes not a bit of difference.

QuoteQuote:
K10D has hypermanual mode. I disparage the scene modes, but I don't disparage this great feature that lets you stay in complete control - and yet makes things easy.
Also a non-issue if you prefer shooting in regular old manual mode. But FWIW, while I'm fuzzy on the exact details of how the K10D hypermanual mode works, the K200D provides things that I imagine are quite similar. In P mode, spinning the dial allows you to choose from different combinations of aperture & shutter speed. This is, I think, called "hyperprogram" - is hypermanual different? Also, in M mode, hitting the Green button can be configured to either set both aperture & shutter according to program line, or to hold one or the other where you had set it but shift the other one accordingly. This was present in the *ist and K100D series also (but maybe not as configurable?), but the hyperprogram feature wasn't - that's one of the K10D features (along with Sv mode, half-step ISO control, and a few other little tidbits) that makes the K200D a step up from the earlier entry level models.

08-21-2008, 09:37 AM   #32
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My K10D battery lasts an incredibly long time. It has only gone dead on me once and that was after a few weeks and a full 2G card. I'm sure the K200D is a fine camera but I know the K10D is up to the task. A solar charger and inverter I would consider essentials for traveling in remote parts of the world and a manual film camera I would bring also if I was to make that trip.
08-21-2008, 02:38 PM   #33
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sometimes (when stuck) one needs to flip a coin and then make final decision based upon his/her mind/heart/gut balance. Wishing you to have the best shot! Both cameras are worth to own.
08-21-2008, 04:10 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Others may argue K200D is better choice (newer model than K10D), but K10D is simply a workhorse, and is much more versatile with regards to customising and features.

Can't go wrong with the K10D - any better, and you're looking at the K20D.
Nothing more to be said. Love the 10D!

08-21-2008, 04:34 PM   #35
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You can also look at the Samsung GX-10 and there seems to be a few more new ones out there than the functional twin K10. Amazon has 'em listed starting at $799 with kit lens...and speaking of that, can anybody say if the 18-55mm Schneider D-XENON Lens is the same as the Pentax 18-55?
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Last edited by FHPhotographer; 08-21-2008 at 04:35 PM. Reason: typo
08-21-2008, 04:38 PM   #36
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On the subject of batteries, I've had experience with cameras that have taken AAs and ones that have taken proprietary batteries and it seems I've had better luck with the proprietary batteries than with AAs in terms of longevity. As long as you don't use the onboard flash too often, then a single charge on a K10 battery will last you a good long while. If you tend to use the onboard flash a lot, then it'll eat the battery power right up. If you find yourself using the flash a lot, then your best bet is to get an external flash, which runs off it's own set of batteries.

This may not be of much use to the OP, but some cars actually have a standard electric plug in them; this is the case with my Toyota Matrix. I've never used the plug to plug in my battery charger, but it's nice to know that I could do so in a pinch while driving down the road.

On the subject of lenses, buy your body without the original kit lens that comes with the K10D and get an 18-55II separately, if you're looking for an economical first lens choice.

Heather
08-21-2008, 04:55 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by hwblanks Quote
As long as you don't use the onboard flash too often, then a single charge on a K10 battery will last you a good long while.
That's true. On a recent trip to New-York (3 days) I had enough confidence in my 2 batteries (in body and grip) that I didn't bring a charger. I took more than 800 shots and had only one battery exhausted. And when I'm shooting I'm leaving the camera on all the time.
08-22-2008, 11:24 AM   #38
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I'm pretty late to this thread but I'll post anyway. The bulk of opinion here favours the K10. I agree for most of the reasons stated. If you can't afford the K20 then the K10 is the way to go. It has already been depreciated about as far as it is likely to go if you are looking at a new one. A good used one will be even less. I don't think you can go wrong with this camera.

Tom G

08-22-2008, 11:37 AM   #39
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Wow, what good replies the op got on this thread.

I'll just add that i got my K10D in Oct of 2007 and still love every minute i spend with it. I also have carried it in the rain with a small absorbent towel draiped over the lens. Going to asia with more rain? i might upgrade to a ziplock baggy or something.

Weight is important for travel i think, so if someone's case about eneloops and K200 is lighter than K10 + Li battery is sig, that might be worth considering. I also liked double AA batteries, but have to admit after i bought the K10, the proprietary batteries have been nice and seem to last a long time.

There was a significant thread on here, i think, about disabling the dust shaker on startup. One person said they only do that when needed. Other person thought that not using the autoshake on startup saved noise. This also pertains to battery life. So remember to disable the autoshake thing or at least consult the thread on these forums to view the discussion.

The only thing i have not seen mentioned, is if you are going to carry a flash. Most flashes i've seen use AA batteries. The beauty of carrying a K200 in that case is that you'd only have to carry one type of backup batteries for flash and camera, AA. I think if you were going to do a lot of interior shots, the flash might be handy, but you might be far better off to skip the flash in favor of the onboard flash and carry a small tripod instead. Not sure of how the K200 onboard flash compares to the K10 in terms of guide number.

I have gone kayak camping in some large water areas. If you're going to carry other electronic devices like a GPS, UV water purifier, radio, flashlight, etc. its really handy to use just one type of AA battery, so you can shift them to whatever device is needed at the time. (Makes me cringe a little bit to think of how wedded westeners are to their battery driven devices)

Soundslike a lot of fun, good luck,
08-22-2008, 12:42 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Also a non-issue if you prefer shooting in regular old manual mode. But FWIW, while I'm fuzzy on the exact details of how the K10D hypermanual mode works, the K200D provides things that I imagine are quite similar. In P mode, spinning the dial allows you to choose from different combinations of aperture & shutter speed. This is, I think, called "hyperprogram" - is hypermanual different?
My mistake here. I always think of them simply as P and M, and I got hyper-program and hyper-manual mixed up. Sorry. I'm obviously not hyper enough myself.

I downloaded the K200D manual to see how it differs from the K20D. Here's what seems to be the case. It looks as if P can do much the same thing on both cameras. Except that, on the K20D, to switch from aperture priority to shutter priority while in P mode, you need only to move either the rear or front e-dial (respectively). On the other hand, on the K200D, by default, P calculates the right exposure using the program line. If you want to use P as a substitute for shutter priority or aperture priority, you have to change a setting in the custom menus. Seems to me that getting into the menus is rather less convenient than simply switching to Av or Tv mode, so P on the K200D seems to me basically a program-line auto exposure mode.

I think I've got it right but correct me if I'm wrong. Don't have a K200D here to play with. I confess I don't fully understand the options described on p 88 of the K200D manual, especially the difference between options 1 and 4.

I can't remember now why M is called hyper-manual.

Bottom line on the K20D is that, due especially to those two e-dials, P gives you quick access to a nearly full range of controls. I still prefer to use M most of the time. And M on the K20D seems to work pretty much exactly as on most other cameras - it's full manual. But while I seldom used P mode on my old K100D, I find myself actually using it on the K20D, enjoying the sense of nearly complete control, and getting good results.

Will
08-22-2008, 12:54 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Wow, what good replies the op got on this thread.

There was a significant thread on here, i think, about disabling the dust shaker on startup. One person said they only do that when needed. Other person thought that not using the autoshake on startup saved noise. This also pertains to battery life. So remember to disable the autoshake thing or at least consult the thread on these forums to view the discussion.
Save noise? My daughter has a guinea pig. The guinea pig makes a little noise, sort of a quick purring noise, that sounds exactly like the noise the K10D and K20D make when you use the anti-dust shake feature. And it's about as loud. The person sitting next to you in church might just be able to hear it, but that's about it.

As for battery use, it seems to be insignificant. I didn't always keep this feature enabled the way I do know. I haven't noticed any difference whatsoever in the number of photos that I get per battery charge - probably because I almost NEVER run the batteries down to nothing.


QuoteQuote:
The only thing i have not seen mentioned, is if you are going to carry a flash. Most flashes i've seen use AA batteries. The beauty of carrying a K200 in that case is that you'd only have to carry one type of backup batteries for flash and camera, AA.
If you think you're going to need backup batteries for both flash AND camera, you'll need to carry EIGHT AA's. I'd rather carry 4 AA's for the flash + 1 Li-Ion battery for the camera. Just my preference.

Will
08-22-2008, 02:29 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
It looks as if P can do much the same thing on both cameras. Except that, on the K20D, to switch from aperture priority to shutter priority while in P mode, you need only to move either the rear or front e-dial (respectively). On the other hand, on the K200D, by default, P calculates the right exposure using the program line. If you want to use P as a substitute for shutter priority or aperture priority, you have to change a setting in the custom menus.
What happens on the K200D is this:

In P mode, the camera selects an aperture and shutter speed. If you don't like the combo it chose, spin the edial and it will give you a *different* combo that provides the same exposure, but how it does so is controlled by the menu setting you mention. I have mine set to switch to Av mode. So in the extremely rare cases where I am in P rather than M mode, I can change to Av with a single "click" of the edial. And from there, each subsequent "click" works just like regular old Av mode.

As far as I can tell, this is *exactly* like what the the K20D does when you spin the rear dial. Only difference is that the k20D also can go to Tv mdoe via the front dial (or maybe it's the other way around).

QuoteQuote:
Seems to me that getting into the menus is rather less convenient than simply switching to Av or Tv mode
Well, sure, but you need never mess with that setting once you have it configured the way you want. As I said, I configured mine months ago to go to Av when the edial is turned. If I ever really needed to go directly from P to Tv mode, I would simply change the main mode dial, but I can go to Av directly with the edial, just like you can.

To my way of thinking, even if I had the other dial that allowed me to go to Tv mode from P mode more quickly, this is still something I'd use at most once every few years. I just don't see the reason to leave M mode most of the time. In the few times a year when I do, P mode does the job most of the time. And in the few cases where that isn't true, the edial puts me in Av mode. I doubt the situation has *ever* happened in my life where this wasn't more than sufficient, but since I've only had a DSLR for 3.5 years, I'll say at most once every 3.501 years :-)

QuoteQuote:
I can't remember now why M is called hyper-manual.
I think it's because of the way the Green button can be configured - on both models - to either act as an explicit Av or Tv shift or to set exposure via program line. You get "auto" functionality at the press of a button.

To me way of thinking, this is the only way to use a camera :-) So extra buttons to help me go into other modes just don't interest me much.
08-22-2008, 02:51 PM   #43
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Agreed, Will.
What's the big deal about having to carry 2 types of batteries?
Having the K10D grip means you can have enough power to shoot around 1500 exposures without changing batteries (that's with dust reduction on startup), and I carry an extra charged one in my bag in case. Never failed me yet - consistent and reliable. My AAs, on the other hand started to lose their capacity to reach 300 exposures on my K100D after perhaps only 200 recharges or so. I'm much happier with the Li-ion batts.

Hyper-P and M modes are definitely not gimmicks. If you know how to use them, you'll soon find out how versatile they are. Then there's the TAv and user modes - brilliant ideas, and practical. Again, the added features of the K10D...

Yes, it's all up to what the user wants, but if you want to be able to customise your exposure triad settings without having to go into a menu to do it, K10D's superior in that regard. I find myself always adjusting both aperture and ISO in Av mode (where I am the most) a lot, which I can do without having to leave my viewfinder, fast.

Pentaprism, more customisable menu options, the list goes on, but again - each to their own... Best choice for Marc is the K200D - suits his needs just fine. Mine's the K10D. And both of us are happy.
08-22-2008, 04:42 PM   #44
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Have owned a K10D for just over a year, and that included lumping it over the jungle/mud etc of the Kokoda Trail in Papua New Guinea where it performed superbly. Took enough batteries with me to ensure I didn't run out, but with 400 shots per charge, you don't need many (I took 7 and used 3 in 10 days) and alternative source batteries don't cost that much. However, after borrowing a K20D from a friend, I was instantly converted (and instantly sought spouse appoval to buy one which arrived yesterday). The increased sensitivity range and faster autofocus sold me, and if you want jungles you need to be able to take photos in the dark.
08-22-2008, 07:32 PM   #45
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My vote is for the K10. It is more flexible, and the controls are laid out very well indeed.
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