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08-24-2008, 04:32 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by solarisdreams Quote
fyi, i have been blessed with a K20d, DA* 16-50, 10month baby, and a dog (among other things). The camera combo kills me when trying to capture pretty much anything that likes to move around lots. I have to say after 5 days of reading and 3 weeks of shooting, the AF (body) and SDM (lens) make for a not-very-desirable hit/miss ratio in terms of pictures in focus.

Call it my lack of technique, call it superior/inferior gear. I'm not here to say either way. But I just wanted you and most importantly PENTAX to know that I just tried the D300 today and it walks all over the K20d. Ofcourse, this is only with MY shooting technique which is pretty much point and shoot. Yes, I can fiddle around with the settings, but at the end of the day, I want the camera to operate in FULL auto when set to auto. No tweeking, just give me the darn image as best as the gear can do it.

Originally, I bought the Pentax setup because the total price was excellent and the reviews everywhere told me that the image quality is great. And after owning the camera, I do agree. The caveat is that you have to capture the image with the subject in focus. (duh right?) And that, my friends is why the D300 will be my next purchase. Yes, it's a more expensive camera but c'mon....PENTAX: Give me your K-whatever-D that can match the OVERALL performance as a mid-highend Nikon and I will buy it. EVEN IF YOU CHARGE MORE. Why? Because you make good lenses and they are priced very well. Same thing goes for SDM...license Nikon's AS-F or whatever..give me something that's fast + all your other current goodies and I'm there. The micro motor speed on this DA* lens just well....sucks.

Final note/gripe. I have no idea what PENTAX does not make a KILLER FF or DX camera. Yes, K20d is great for the price but like the PENTAX west coast rep told me before, companies don't make money on bodies. The bread and butter is in the glass. So...since your glass is so well priced, why not make a beat-all body so you can sell more glass? Hopefully they are working on that for announcement in early '09. Otherwise, I can't see pentax shaking off the "pentax is for geezers and i'm cheap fanboys" image. Like I said earlier...I would gladly pay double the k20d for a near d700 performance (don't care about live view or 3" screen) and spend the rest of the difference (between a proper D700 setup) and buy a whole lot of pentax glass since it's so (relatively) inexpensive.

end gripe. sorry if I bored you...just a little frustrated with pentax's direction - no wonder they lost money in this biz.

disclaimer, whether you believe it or not: k20d is my first D-slr. have tried the D3, D300, D700. Never tried a Canon SLR in my entire life. I've had 2 minolta film slrs before this. Some p&s - barely worth mentioning. Been shooting total of 12 years.
So you joined the Pentax forum this month and your 10th post is to tell us all why Pentax sucks? Thanks for that.

Good luck with your D300. It's a fine camera, and I'm sure it will solve all your photography woes.

08-24-2008, 05:31 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
If that's how you see yourselves, I'm not going to argue.

For myself, I'd just like to see them build a camera that can play in the same sandbox as the big boys good cameras.
Why? This segment of the market accounts for 1% or less of DSLR sales and almost none of the profit.

You are the one with buyers remorse. If you are too tight fisted to buy a D300 or a D3 you presumably bought the K20D because it was good value and now you are too insecure to judge a cameras qualities for yourself so you rely on "branding" or other peoples opinions.

You are the one who has an issue with your camera or with Pentax so why should those of us that are perfectly happy and made a quality NOT a cost decision give a toss what you think?
08-24-2008, 05:49 PM   #63
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If Nikon ever made a digital facsimile of the F3 or FM3A I would be on it like a shot, even if it wasn't FF. But their higher end bodies are just too freaking huge for my taste. Or, alternatively, if Pentax were to ever bring out the digital LX, I'd buy two. As it is, nobody is making a dSLR that appeals to me right now, so I'll just have to sit on my money until someone does. And if that someone is someone other than Pentax, well, their loss. But I'll take the high road, and not post a "I'm ditching Pentax for XXXX" thread on every forum on the web. I promise.
08-24-2008, 05:54 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Why? This segment of the market accounts for 1% or less of DSLR sales and almost none of the profit.
?

That was when only Canon offered FF at $8000 and that pedestrian 5D which have worse image quality than some APS cameras. The D700 is out now and selling briskly. The 5DmkII is soon here. So is the Sony A900. These cameras will cost $3000 (initially). It is also a very profitable part of the market. Thats why all want to be there....

Anyway, Pentax cannot continue making the same body for the same market segment forever without diging themselves into a trench they cannot get out of. All their DSLR's realeased so far have basically appealed to the same customers, and have stolen sales from each other. What they need to do is to extend their user base both at the entry level and high end. And they need a wide separation between the models.

08-24-2008, 06:28 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That was when only Canon offered FF at $8000 and that pedestrian 5D which have worse image quality than some APS cameras. The D700 is out now and selling briskly. The 5DmkII is soon here. So is the Sony A900. These cameras will cost $3000 (initially). It is also a very profitable part of the market. Thats why all want to be there....

Anyway, Pentax cannot continue making the same body for the same market segment forever without diging themselves into a trench they cannot get out of. All their DSLR's realeased so far have basically appealed to the same customers, and have stolen sales from each other. What they need to do is to extend their user base both at the entry level and high end. And they need a wide separation between the models.
What if that "Wide Separation" ends up being a 645D at $18,000 and a P & S? They loose all the guys like me. There's no point in me looking at a $5-8000 camera unless I win the lottery. Especially considering it will be obsolete in 6-12 months.
08-24-2008, 07:28 PM   #66
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i would just like to add my own little observation.


My friends Canon 30D couples with his L glass (currently his weapon of choice is a 16-35 F2.8 and the coveted 35L)

but even glass aside, the images his camera takes are different, i have almost never been able to recreate the same feel to my images as he has on his camera.

its not a question of better or worse from a technical persepctive (i have out-resolved his 70-200 L on my K20D with a 15 dollar Soligor lens)

but different

its that unmeasurable difference that would make or break a purchase.

also i have never handeled a D3 or a MKiii's, but i'm quite certain that there is something about a camera that is designed to shoot fast frames that would offer even to the amateur.

anyway.

i like my pentax

but i like my friends canon

my choice for pentax was entirely cost driven

if canon glass was in the same price category as pentax, i might have never went pentax.

as for NIkon, i have handeled a D20, and seriously its nothing different from a K100D...

now i need to convince my boss to lend me his D300...
08-24-2008, 07:51 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by solarisdreams Quote
fyi, i have been blessed with a K20d, DA* 16-50, 10month baby, and a dog (among other things). The camera combo kills me when trying to capture pretty much anything that likes to move around lots. I have to say after 5 days of reading and 3 weeks of shooting, the AF (body) and SDM (lens) make for a not-very-desirable hit/miss ratio in terms of pictures in focus.

Call it my lack of technique, call it superior/inferior gear. I'm not here to say either way. But I just wanted you and most importantly PENTAX to know that I just tried the D300 today and it walks all over the K20d. Ofcourse, this is only with MY shooting technique which is pretty much point and shoot. Yes, I can fiddle around with the settings, but at the end of the day, I want the camera to operate in FULL auto when set to auto. No tweeking, just give me the darn image as best as the gear can do it.

Originally, I bought the Pentax setup because the total price was excellent and the reviews everywhere told me that the image quality is great. And after owning the camera, I do agree. The caveat is that you have to capture the image with the subject in focus. (duh right?) And that, my friends is why the D300 will be my next purchase. Yes, it's a more expensive camera but c'mon....PENTAX: Give me your K-whatever-D that can match the OVERALL performance as a mid-highend Nikon and I will buy it. EVEN IF YOU CHARGE MORE. Why? Because you make good lenses and they are priced very well. Same thing goes for SDM...license Nikon's AS-F or whatever..give me something that's fast + all your other current goodies and I'm there. The micro motor speed on this DA* lens just well....sucks.

Final note/gripe. I have no idea what PENTAX does not make a KILLER FF or DX camera. Yes, K20d is great for the price but like the PENTAX west coast rep told me before, companies don't make money on bodies. The bread and butter is in the glass. So...since your glass is so well priced, why not make a beat-all body so you can sell more glass? Hopefully they are working on that for announcement in early '09. Otherwise, I can't see pentax shaking off the "pentax is for geezers and i'm cheap fanboys" image. Like I said earlier...I would gladly pay double the k20d for a near d700 performance (don't care about live view or 3" screen) and spend the rest of the difference (between a proper D700 setup) and buy a whole lot of pentax glass since it's so (relatively) inexpensive.

end gripe. sorry if I bored you...just a little frustrated with pentax's direction - no wonder they lost money in this biz.

disclaimer, whether you believe it or not: k20d is my first D-slr. have tried the D3, D300, D700. Never tried a Canon SLR in my entire life. I've had 2 minolta film slrs before this. Some p&s - barely worth mentioning. Been shooting total of 12 years.
I'm not trying to nasty / fight or anything like that. I am just curious as I seen similar comments a number of times of the past few years, so my question...

Why do you have a dslr? if you want to use it like a p&s with everything on auto etc, why not just get a good quality point and shoot?

Phil
08-24-2008, 08:27 PM   #68
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Don't forget Sony

My lack of technical knowledge and low level of photographic ability should keep me out of this but as a Pentax k10D owner that wanted an upgrade in several areas I bought a Sony A700. My plan was to keep it until Pentax came up with something with better low light ability and faster AF than the K20D then sell the A700 and buy the Pentax.

After 3 months of using the A700 I'm rethinking that plan. This is a hobby for me and the more fun I have the better. I find myself reaching for the Sony a lot more than the Pentax for many reasons and if a friend asked me for advise as to which they should buy between the A700 and k20D I'd have to say the answer would be the A700.

The overall cost of the two systems would be very similar. The extra AF speed and better low light ability of the A700 makes it a more flexible system. Now that I've become more familiar with the A700 I'm finding the controls much better than the K10D.

The high ISO ability and IQ is good enough to make me wish my Pentax primes worked on it. At this point the primes are the only reason I'm hanging on to the K10D. Pentax will have to come up with a unit that at least equals the AF speed and low light focusing ability of the A700 to keep me as a customer.

Regards,

08-24-2008, 09:28 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Why? This segment of the market accounts for 1% or less of DSLR sales and almost none of the profit.

You are the one with buyers remorse. If you are too tight fisted to buy a D300 or a D3 you presumably bought the K20D because it was good value and now you are too insecure to judge a cameras qualities for yourself so you rely on "branding" or other peoples opinions.

You are the one who has an issue with your camera or with Pentax so why should those of us that are perfectly happy and made a quality NOT a cost decision give a toss what you think?
You haven't got a freaking clue about what you are talking about, so you just revert to the personal attacks typical of mindless fanboys. I probably own more Pentax glass than any 6 people on this forum combined, and yes, I am a little peeved that the best camera I can get to put them on is a K20.
Why should I be happy that I have to put the best glass in the world on a second rate camera?
Your standards are not my standards, obviously.
Have you never had the pleasure of using a camera capable of 9FPS, and appreciated the responsiveness of a machine of that caliber?
Don't bother answering that question, it was rhetorical.
Anyway, keep being happy that you get to play in the shallow end of the pool. Eventually, you may grow up and realize that there are a lot of opportunities you are missing because you think that a paddling pool is the best that there is.
08-24-2008, 09:32 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by philmorley Quote
I'm not trying to nasty / fight or anything like that. I am just curious as I seen similar comments a number of times of the past few years, so my question...

Why do you have a dslr? if you want to use it like a p&s with everything on auto etc, why not just get a good quality point and shoot?

Phil
It doesn't matter how good a point and shoot is, it will never match the picture quality of a DSLR, whether or not the DSLR ever gets used as more than a glorified PHD camera.
08-24-2008, 09:43 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I probably own more Pentax glass than any 6 people on this forum combined
Now thats a bold statement...
08-24-2008, 10:54 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by mhertel Quote
Now thats a bold statement...

This is an old picture, and doesn't include my 6x7 (add another 8 lenses and a camera)

Last edited by Wheatfield; 08-24-2008 at 11:27 PM.
08-24-2008, 11:43 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by philmorley Quote
Why do you have a dslr? if you want to use it like a p&s with everything on auto etc, why not just get a good quality point and shoot?

Phil
I use my K10D on P mode 99% of the time. I bought it for a round Oz holiday as I wanted better quailty holiday snapshots than my P&S but mostly for the responsiveness and speed at which you can override the auto stuff. I use the eDials, Exp Comp and set specific Iso regularly. If I give the camera to my wife or kids, I want Auto to take a decent pic (which exposure wise it does... in fact I think it does very well at this), however I also want it to focus on what the centre point is pointing at (got no faith in Auto selection mode) but it regularly misses and focuses on things in the background. The biggest problem for me is that it can get it right... if it couldn't I would have chucked it long ago, however my luv for it is growing dimer!. maybe I've been duped by reading how great AF cameras were, nobody mentioned that mis-focus is normal (from what people say about Nikon and Canons then they aren't any better).

Do I know what I'm doing... maybe bnot, but I'd hazard to say yes. I shoot 4x5 LF, Mamiya 645 and Nikon 35mm (not used much now) and muck around with pinholes and other things like toy cameras.

I don't want to spend D300 money but if accurate focus (K10D speed is fine) then I might have too (at least I can then use my Ais Nikkors). Will have to look at the D90 when it gets here.

regards, Nige
08-25-2008, 12:00 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote

This is an old picture, and doesn't include my 6x7 (add another 8 lenses and a camera)
Impressive. Of course, I can't tell what most of it is, resolution is so low. Must have been taken with a Canon.



.
08-25-2008, 12:47 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
For myself, I'd just like to see them build a camera that can play in the same sandbox as the big boys good cameras.
Me too. I'm still waiting for Nikon or Canon to make a weather sealed camera with in-body IS at a reasonable price. And price their sealed, stabilized lenses more sanely, if they can ever agree on which of their lenses are sealed and which aren't.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you mean PENTAX had to up their game? I completely misunderstood!
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