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08-25-2008, 09:45 AM   #91
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I guess my comments can be taken as whining as well. I'm not a fanboy but I am very happy with my cameras and gear but if I really felt that another system could do what I wanted that much better than what I'm currently using, then I'd either add or switch to another brand. Before buying the K10D I did a lot of research on the big 2 and borrowed new bodies with high end lenses from both. My local dealer was good enough to give me a Sunday to shoot with their demos. Frankly neither of the big 2 systems (at the time at least) offered anything that justified the price differences. For one I'll take more accurate AF that is a bit slower than AF that is faster at 5-10FPS that gives me a card full of fuzzy shots.

I just finished reading several articles from Mark B Bartosik Digital Nature Photography and Wildlife Photographs by Mark B. Bartosik
who shoots Top line Canon gear. He advises that you should only shoot around 2-4 frames in a burst to get better AF and not clog the buffer for the next bit of action. His results speak for themselves. Funny, my K10d can do that! With it in continuous mode and a fast enough lens, I can get good action shots as long as I practice.

But I will admit that it's not an area I spend much time. Sure the K20D could have offered a faster AF and frame rate for those that think it's needed. But they only have 2 models on the market right now. Maybe they will add 1 or 2 new models sometime soon and have more choices for everyone.

I think we can all agree that Pentax glass can hold it's own against anyone. Sure we might want a few other Fl's but in time and all the most important bases are covered for most of us.

I'm not saying Wheatfield, you or anyone else should be cast aside. Even Rh or any other member has valid views an information to contribute. But the constant, endless, whining in various threads about the weakness (perceived or real) is like chalk board and finger nails. I agree that a few things with Pentax bodies can improve. Canon and Nikon shooters say the same as well about their systems. Hence the huge quantities of bodies and constant model changes from the big 2.

08-25-2008, 10:48 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
...Frankly neither of the big 2 systems (at the time at least) offered anything that justified the price differences...
That sums it up for me as well. When I was in the purchase process for my K10D I seriously considered all competing brands/models and based my purchase on the feature set and price point. I wish I could say that the camera's handling characteristics clinched the deal, but I have to confess that I bought the K10D blind. No local dealers were able to keep it in stock. When I took delivery, I was so impressed that I bought one for my daughter as well.

After 18 months of ownership, I continue to be extremely pleased with the camera and feel that my original rational for the purchase continues to be valid. In fact, I am so satisfied that I have not been tempted in the least to purchase a K20D or any of the competition regardless of brand! That being said, I have only two rubbing points that I would like to resolve when the time comes to replace my K10D:
  • Better wide angle options
  • Larger, brighter viewfinder

Translation: FF sensor

With any luck, Pentax will supply. (Fingers crossed...)

Steve

P.S. There is actually a third rubbing point, consistent metering with non-A mount lenses...but then, I must not whine...
08-25-2008, 10:50 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That was when only Canon offered FF at $8000 and that pedestrian 5D which have worse image quality than some APS cameras. The D700 is out now and selling briskly. The 5DmkII is soon here. So is the Sony A900. These cameras will cost $3000 (initially). It is also a very profitable part of the market. Thats why all want to be there....
And its still only 1% of the market. Show me the numbers to say its profitable. Uh, nope there arent any.
08-25-2008, 11:03 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
  • Better wide angle options
  • Larger, brighter viewfinder

Translation: FF sensor

With any luck, Pentax will supply. (Fingers crossed...)

Steve

P.S. There is actually a third rubbing point, consistent metering with non-A mount lenses...but then, I must not whine...
FF (at least for now) doesn't make me excited and I basically like the DA16-45 and Sigma 10-20mm in combination for wide shooting. I would think (although FE doesn't interest me) the DA10-17mm should satisfy most unless I'm missing something.

On the VF, I'd like 100% viewing angle as well but not a huge issue. It's bright enough for my uses.

I will completely agree on the M and M42 series glass metering. It would be great to get a firmware fix to allow accurate metering. I just want an email from Pentax warning me a week in advance, of the change so I can clean out Ebay and KEH

I'm no techie but I can't quite figure this out. If I have an M or M42 series lens stopped down and push the green button, shouldn't the camera sensor see the set shutter speed and available light to give a correct meter reading? It's as if it doesn't see it's own shutter speed or ISO accurately. I always have to adjust about 2 stops or the shot is overexposed.

08-25-2008, 12:24 PM   #95
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Since I dont have a freaking clue

..perhaps you can answer this....

Since most of your glass is manual focus, why do you care about AF speed?

(Odd but I am SURE I have seen that same photo before......)

By the way I think its about time you had a garage sale. Best glass in the world? Have you ever TRIED a Canon 70-200 F4? All major companies have some excellent lenses but Canon has the highest ratio of "highly recommended" on Photozone. And you call ME a fanboy? And yes I have all the LTDs and the FA* 300F4.5 and 200F2.8 and yes they are very good but there are a number of Canon and Nikon fast teles which are at least as good or better.

And as I belong to a fairly well established photo club I get to shoot all kinds of gear. I am far more impressed with the Hassy H3DII-39. If you want image quality forget any 35mm based camera right now. I also note you can pick up a H2DII-31 with an 80mm lens for not much more than a 1DS mk3.

Personally I think Pentax should go for the 645 and s*d Nikon. 9fps? Yes, very nice but completely irrelevant for anything I am likely to shoot and true for 99% of photogs. Besides Pentax no longer make any fast long tele lenses (primes or zooms) so its not exactly the perfect tool for birding or sport but it does the job for casual work. And whats the frame rate on your 67?

Besides I thought you shot in a studio. What possibly use would a D3 be in a studio over a K20D? A 1Ds mk3 I could understand but a D3? Its a photojournalist camera.

And how many Pentax cameras have ever had high frame rates? AFAIK, the PZ1P was fastest at 4.5 fps at a time when Nikon and Canon have had SLRs with 10 fps or more. The MZS was only 2.5 FPS. It didnt matter then, why does it matter now?

And since I have owned Nikon, Canon and Minolta systems over the years and could quite happily afford any camera I liked perhaps I have a better perspective on how good the competition REALLY is. And yes I do have a very decent set of Pentax lenses but I would happily eBay the lot if I thought Nikon or Canon were clearly superior.


QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You haven't got a freaking clue about what you are talking about, so you just revert to the personal attacks typical of mindless fanboys. I probably own more Pentax glass than any 6 people on this forum combined, and yes, I am a little peeved that the best camera I can get to put them on is a K20.
Why should I be happy that I have to put the best glass in the world on a second rate camera?
Your standards are not my standards, obviously.
Have you never had the pleasure of using a camera capable of 9FPS, and appreciated the responsiveness of a machine of that caliber?
Don't bother answering that question, it was rhetorical.
Anyway, keep being happy that you get to play in the shallow end of the pool. Eventually, you may grow up and realize that there are a lot of opportunities you are missing because you think that a paddling pool is the best that there is.
08-25-2008, 01:20 PM   #96
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Oh my gawd, PORN!

Off topic here, but if Wheatfield ever switches brands I get first dibs on all his lenses, especially that entire back row. I live only a 6-7 hour drive from either Saskatoon or Regina, and I own a station wagon that just loves to carry expensive glass!


QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote

This is an old picture, and doesn't include my 6x7 (add another 8 lenses and a camera)
08-25-2008, 01:33 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
...I'm no techie but I can't quite figure this out. If I have an M or M42 series lens stopped down and push the green button, shouldn't the camera sensor see the set shutter speed and available light to give a correct meter reading?
I am with you Peter. It does not make any sense. The best I can figure is that the open-aperture metering used with A-mount lenses must apply some sort of mathematical splines to compensate for non-linear detector behavior. The transmitted aperture setting would then be applied as a term in the spline expression. Since this data is missing on the non-A lenses, the system apparently defaults to something like f/5.6. In the distant past, this task was accomplished by an array of trim potentiometers that were used to tune the detector at various sensitivity ranges.

So much for the thread hi-jack...on with the pointless throwing of spears and shooting of arrows!

Steve
08-25-2008, 02:14 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
..perhaps you can answer this....

Since most of your glass is manual focus, why do you care about AF speed?

(Odd but I am SURE I have seen that same photo before......)

By the way I think its about time you had a garage sale. Best glass in the world? Have you ever TRIED a Canon 70-200 F4? All major companies have some excellent lenses but Canon has the highest ratio of "highly recommended" on Photozone. And you call ME a fanboy? And yes I have all the LTDs and the FA* 300F4.5 and 200F2.8 and yes they are very good but there are a number of Canon and Nikon fast teles which are at least as good or better.

And as I belong to a fairly well established photo club I get to shoot all kinds of gear. I am far more impressed with the Hassy H3DII-39. If you want image quality forget any 35mm based camera right now. I also note you can pick up a H2DII-31 with an 80mm lens for not much more than a 1DS mk3.

Personally I think Pentax should go for the 645 and s*d Nikon. 9fps? Yes, very nice but completely irrelevant for anything I am likely to shoot and true for 99% of photogs. Besides Pentax no longer make any fast long tele lenses (primes or zooms) so its not exactly the perfect tool for birding or sport but it does the job for casual work. And whats the frame rate on your 67?

Besides I thought you shot in a studio. What possibly use would a D3 be in a studio over a K20D? A 1Ds mk3 I could understand but a D3? Its a photojournalist camera.

And how many Pentax cameras have ever had high frame rates? AFAIK, the PZ1P was fastest at 4.5 fps at a time when Nikon and Canon have had SLRs with 10 fps or more. The MZS was only 2.5 FPS. It didnt matter then, why does it matter now?

And since I have owned Nikon, Canon and Minolta systems over the years and could quite happily afford any camera I liked perhaps I have a better perspective on how good the competition REALLY is. And yes I do have a very decent set of Pentax lenses but I would happily eBay the lot if I thought Nikon or Canon were clearly superior.

...and the heavyweights have dropped the gloves...

08-25-2008, 02:41 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
...and the heavyweights have dropped the gloves...
Ding, Ding, Ding
08-25-2008, 03:10 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
And its still only 1% of the market.
There were 7.5 million DSLR sold in 2007, One percent of that would be 75,000. Can we assume US $3000 per 135 format DSLR body? With that assumption the world market for 135 format DSLRs would have been US $225,000,000.


Nikon and Canon took a combined 84% of the market with Pentax taking 5.8% of the DSLR market in 2007. If Pentax had a 135 format DSLR in 2007 and could make the same market share in 135 format, that would be a possible 4,350 135 format Pentax DSLRs sold in 2007. Using the US $3000 assumption above, that would be US $13,050,000 in revenue.

What do you think the retail mark up on cameras is? Probably what, 200%, so Pentax would probably only earns about US $3.5 million out of that US $13 million

I suppose it would be harder to sale a US $3000 camera sight unseen? Where would you have been able to see a Pentax 135 DSLR camera when most retailers didn't even have the Pentax cropped sensor cameras on the shelf in 2007? Maybe then, the market would have been half that 4,350 cameras sold or maybe even less?

I think if our assumptions are even close, Pentax would have made about US $1.25 million in revenue on a 135 format DSLR in 2007. Does that sound like it would cover the business investment of development of a 135 format DSLR? Do you think 2008 will be better or worse for Pentax for sales of camera bodies?

Maybe Hoya would be smart to let the business cost of the acquisition be rolled into the earnings for this year, and hold off a year or two before taking the risk of putting a 135 format DSLR on the market when you consider the little revenue it would produce? Does that sound too far fetched?

I have to wonder what percent of the digital 135 format market Pentax would have to have to pay for the cost of development and roll out of the body? I suppose the body could only be updated once in five years to let the revenue build, but that doesn't sound like a good plan either. The technology just seems to be getting going, so I would imagine a new body at least every two years?

I don't know, but it sure seems like a Pentax 135 format DSLR is a lot further away than two years, shrug, maybe not? Maybe my assumptions are just wrong?

Thank you
Russell

Last edited by Russell-Evans; 08-25-2008 at 07:41 PM. Reason: spelling
08-25-2008, 03:43 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote

This is an old picture, and doesn't include my 6x7 (add another 8 lenses and a camera)
I propose that we postpone the boxing match and have a contest: Who can correctly identify all of Wheatfield's lenses?

BTW, do I spy a Fish-Eye-Takumar on the left?
08-25-2008, 03:45 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Russell-Evans Quote

. . .


I suppose it would be harder to sale a US $3000 camera sight unseen? Where would you have been able to see a Pentax 135 DSLR camera when most retailers didn't even have the Pentax cropped sensor cameras on the shelf in 2007? Maybe then, the market would have been half that 4,350 cameras sold or maybe even less?

. . .

Russell
I essentially bought my k200d sight unseen. I live in the state capital of Florida and we have 2 Ritz cameras and one independent that carries bare minimum canon and nikon. Ritz had 1 Pentax in and no one could remember whether it was the k20d or the k200d, it may have even been a k10d. That was for both Ritz stores. I may have been able to find one in Jacksonville. Had I been able to actually look at them and try them out, I may have gone with the k20d. However, I wasn't willing to gamble on the k20d, sight unseen.
08-25-2008, 06:06 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by hwblanks Quote
3. Buy 1 K20 and a fast telezoom (70-200/2.8)
Yeah right - if you can find one.

QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
Heather, you will never convince the "8,000 fps is going to get the shot" people that an original 1957 Pentax with manual focus and preset aperture could not take good pictures of a fast game, such as soccer and/or hockey. I've done both successfully. To be specific, the original Pentax, first six months production, bought used in a pawn shop in Vancouver, B.C. and a brand spanking new (when I bought it) Super Takumar 135mm f/3.5.

I was taught by some very, very good people, that knowing the sport well enough to anticipate the action is far more important than the equipment.

Go for the backup body and good glass. The glass lasts forever. Bodies wear out. (Including my personal one, which has far too many years under it).
But modern sports photographers would have way more good photos, not just the few you have seen. I've done manual and autofocus, and, in good enough light, even Pentax's "inferior" autofocus is better than manual. You cannot keep up with someone running straight at you with manual focus, as well as zoom out (if you have a zoom). Anticipation is cool, but if every move could be anticipated it would be a bloody boring sport.

QuoteOriginally posted by alfdog Quote
Without a doubt, I know that a BMW would be a better vehicle than my Ford.
Having driven a few BMWs a lot, I wouldn't agree with that statement at all, well maybe YOUR Ford, don't know much about that particular one
08-25-2008, 06:10 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Arpe Quote
Yeah right - if you can find one.

. . .
There's one for sale in the marketplace right now.
08-25-2008, 06:17 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote

This is an old picture, and doesn't include my 6x7 (add another 8 lenses and a camera)
So many lenses... you must be a collector.
How about posting some nice pictures from those lovely lenses?
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