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08-22-2008, 06:52 PM   #1
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Pentax to Nikon defections...

Is it me, or have you noticed that there seems to be quite a few people defecting to Nikon, particularly the D700, lately?

Other than the fact that it's FF and has some other whiz-bang features, is it really worth spending $2000 more over the price of a K20? I was talking with my husband (more like boring) about the subject and got to thinking what I could do if I had $3000 to blow on camera gear and running some ideas through my head as to what I could do with that kind of money if I had it. Here are some of my ideas:

1. Buy 2 K20s and a couple more lenses and sell the K10 for even more gear money.
2. Buy 1 K20, keep the K10, and buy $2000 worth of lenses and other smaller stuff.
3. Buy 1 K20 and a fast telezoom (70-200/2.8) for myself and spend the rest of the money buying Canon-mount lenses for my dad's Canon XSi.
4. Buy 1 K20 and a fast telezoom (70-200/2.8) for myself and a K20 and a lens or 2 for Dad with the idea that once Dad gets his hands on a K20 and discovers how much better it is than his Canon gear, he'll have Mom put his Canon gear on Fleabay and use the proceeds to satisfy the LBA monster in him that I created.

Yes, if I had $3000 to blow on my photography hobby, there are definitely better ways of blowing it than blowing it all on one body!

Heather

08-22-2008, 07:31 PM   #2
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Heather, you will never convince the "8,000 fps is going to get the shot" people that an original 1957 Pentax with manual focus and preset aperture could not take good pictures of a fast game, such as soccer and/or hockey. I've done both successfully. To be specific, the original Pentax, first six months production, bought used in a pawn shop in Vancouver, B.C. and a brand spanking new (when I bought it) Super Takumar 135mm f/3.5.

I was taught by some very, very good people, that knowing the sport well enough to anticipate the action is far more important than the equipment.

Go for the backup body and good glass. The glass lasts forever. Bodies wear out. (Including my personal one, which has far too many years under it).
08-22-2008, 08:03 PM   #3
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Let them go.. more lenses for us
08-22-2008, 08:06 PM   #4
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I had this email sent to me a few days ago.
It might be enlightening.....

"i simply don't trust the Pentax bodies to deliver reliable exposure, WB, and noise control as any of my Nikon bodies. the K20D's noise is not that good and unless shot with very careful exposure, more than any of my current Nikon bodies under ordinary circumstances. long exposures like i am fond of doing with waterfalls and HDR sequences induce sensor heat buildup noise that i have never seen in any other DSLR i have owned, including the K10D. this noise is a huge hassle to deal with and when it occurs, i end up throwing away lots of images. inconsistent exposure, mostly under, just kills noise performance because when the camera is under, it's under by a lot, 2/3 of a stop to as much as 1.5 stops. with a camera that is as noisy as the K10D or K20D, correct exposure is super important. Pentax may use a contrasty tone curve to hide the noise in JPG mode but i shoot RAW and process with a linear tone curve specifically to dig out lots of shadow detail. it's part of my look and i don't like to deal with cameras that don't have the dynamic range i need. the usual numeric noise figures for the K20D are misleading because they aren't sensitive to low spatial frequency chroma noise that the camera produces.

messed up AWB is an inconvenience as i shoot only RAW, but it's annoying to do the extra step of overriding WB on just about every shot in tricky lighting. i'm not talking about tricky white balance, just unusual patterns of light and dark in daylight. tricky color balance problems seem to be beyond the camera's ability to recognize.

shooting essentially 7 days a week with my D3 has made me very unsatisified with the speed and noise of the K10D and K20D. i'm talking general handling speed as well as my more specific complaints about AF speed and FPS. i haven't yet bought any DA* lenses with SDM, and i will eventually. that will address lens AF noise, but not its speed. it's hard to describe to someone who has never used one what it's like to get used to a 9FPS camera's responsiveness. most of my shooting, although not much of my selects yet, are done with my D3 set to its highest FPS and high shutter speeds. simple things like quick review and so on follow from the D3 generally being a speedy camera. even on a tripod with long exposures, the D3 just lets me work faster.

i get what i feel are better results from the K20D only under relatively limited circumstances because of the body's shortcomings. these shortcomings degrade the lens advantage over Nikkor lenses to the point where i just don't feel like using the body more than i have to. i find myself prefering to use the K10D more to avoid the sensor heating problem. for the moment, i am solving my dissatisfaction with Nikkor short tele to wide prime problem by buying Zeiss lenses. i consider high end Nikkor zooms better than Pentax ones in most areas except flare and am happy with them otherwise. the one area where i have to do some experiments on are my B&W people photography. the K20D chroma noise basically disappears, but i am not sure of the general sensor heating problem. the K10D was excellent for this when i shot with the 43 and 77. i want to use the K20D with the same lenses but i am not sure i will get the results i want. when i get back from vacation, i will try a couple of sessions with the K20D to see how things work out. i may go back to the K10D from which i have had excellent results.

i just feel so disappointed and occasionally angry at Pentax for just not getting it when they had a chance to lead and now i don't see much chance of them ever doing more than eternally playing catch-up, even with Samsung in there. i just shouldn't have so much hassle to get consistent high quality results from the bodies. VPN on the K10D is a near-fatal problem for me. the K20D reduced VPN but not to the point where i am happy. however, the K20D adds noise overall by using cheap ADCs and then not providing adequate cooling for the sensor so that long exposure aficionados like me have the dark-field NR become essentially useless. inconsistent exposure and AWB just aggravate things. when i use the Pentax bodies, i just spend too much time working around their shortcomings and for many things, it's just not worth it."

08-22-2008, 08:20 PM   #5
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The person behind the Body is so much more important than who makes the body or the glass. Thats my opinion, but hey, I'm an old fart.

But yeah, I've noticed a lot of running to Nikon both here and at DPreview....
08-22-2008, 08:50 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I had this email sent to me a few days ago.
It might be enlightening.....

"i simply don't trust the Pentax bodies to deliver reliable exposure, WB, and noise control as any of my Nikon bodies. the K20D's noise is not that good and unless shot with very careful exposure, more than any of my current Nikon bodies under ordinary circumstances. long exposures like i am fond of doing with waterfalls and HDR sequences induce sensor heat buildup noise that i have never seen in any other DSLR i have owned, including the K10D. this noise is a huge hassle to deal with and when it occurs, i end up throwing away lots of images. inconsistent exposure, mostly under, just kills noise performance because when the camera is under, it's under by a lot, 2/3 of a stop to as much as 1.5 stops. with a camera that is as noisy as the K10D or K20D, correct exposure is super important. Pentax may use a contrasty tone curve to hide the noise in JPG mode but i shoot RAW and process with a linear tone curve specifically to dig out lots of shadow detail. it's part of my look and i don't like to deal with cameras that don't have the dynamic range i need. the usual numeric noise figures for the K20D are misleading because they aren't sensitive to low spatial frequency chroma noise that the camera produces.
Yes, noise might *look* better, but at the loss of detail. You can make the K20D look just as good, but you will lose detail also. The other thing that the K20D does at high ISO is have a very film like appearance, which seems to be lacking in the other cams.

I really don't understand this belief that the K10D/K20D is poor at getting correct exposure. I have never really had a problem with the exposure of any of my Pentax cameras, the *ist D, nor the K10D and now the K20D.

Just about every time I look at the individual colour histogram I find that one or more of the colours is exposed near or on the right of the histogram. Yes, the combined histogram may *look* underexposed, but when you look at the individual channels you see that this is not the case. Now, the only way you could make the combined histogram *look* correct is to blow one or more of the individual colour channels and if the Nikon's do this, then I say good luck to them. The thing is, it is *you*, the photographer, that needs to make this judgement, not the camera. This is why I cannot understand this belief that Pentax has exposure problems. It sounds to me like a photographer problem as they have forgotten how to judge a scene.

QuoteQuote:
messed up AWB is an inconvenience as i shoot only RAW, but it's annoying to do the extra step of overriding WB on just about every shot in tricky lighting. i'm not talking about tricky white balance, just unusual patterns of light and dark in daylight. tricky color balance problems seem to be beyond the camera's ability to recognize.
Here is another amazing problem that this person encounters that I never seem to find. I find the WB is nealry always spot on. I think this guy needs to tweak his monitor, not get a new camera.

QuoteQuote:
shooting essentially 7 days a week with my D3 has made me very unsatisified with the speed and noise of the K10D and K20D. i'm talking general handling speed as well as my more specific complaints about AF speed and FPS. i haven't yet bought any DA* lenses with SDM, and i will eventually. that will address lens AF noise, but not its speed. it's hard to describe to someone who has never used one what it's like to get used to a 9FPS camera's responsiveness.
I remember another person posting how impressed they were with a camera that can do this machine gun shooting, but in the end, they *never* ever needed it and it was only the fact that the speed was impressive, not that they ever would need it. In otherwords, they were more impressed by the technology rather than the results.

Also, it has been shown that the AF speed isn't all that different to the others at lighting levels above EV5.

QuoteQuote:
most of my shooting, although not much of my selects yet, are done with my D3 set to its highest FPS and high shutter speeds. simple things like quick review and so on follow from the D3 generally being a speedy camera. even on a tripod with long exposures, the D3 just lets me work faster.
Review? The review speed of the K20D is basically instantaneous anyway. What does he want, a review *before* he takes the photo now? I think some people have their hand on it too much.

QuoteQuote:
i get what i feel are better results from the K20D only under relatively limited circumstances because of the body's shortcomings. these shortcomings degrade the lens advantage over Nikkor lenses to the point where i just don't feel like using the body more than i have to. i find myself prefering to use the K10D more to avoid the sensor heating problem. for the moment, i am solving my dissatisfaction with Nikkor short tele to wide prime problem by buying Zeiss lenses. i consider high end Nikkor zooms better than Pentax ones in most areas except flare and am happy with them otherwise. the one area where i have to do some experiments on are my B&W people photography. the K20D chroma noise basically disappears, but i am not sure of the general sensor heating problem. the K10D was excellent for this when i shot with the 43 and 77. i want to use the K20D with the same lenses but i am not sure i will get the results i want. when i get back from vacation, i will try a couple of sessions with the K20D to see how things work out. i may go back to the K10D from which i have had excellent results.

i just feel so disappointed and occasionally angry at Pentax for just not getting it when they had a chance to lead and now i don't see much chance of them ever doing more than eternally playing catch-up, even with Samsung in there. i just shouldn't have so much hassle to get consistent high quality results from the bodies. VPN on the K10D is a near-fatal problem for me. the K20D reduced VPN but not to the point where i am happy. however, the K20D adds noise overall by using cheap ADCs and then not providing adequate cooling for the sensor so that long exposure aficionados like me have the dark-field NR become essentially useless. inconsistent exposure and AWB just aggravate things. when i use the Pentax bodies, i just spend too much time working around their shortcomings and for many things, it's just not worth it."
What a load of bollocks. I think this guy is just saying all this to justify his (pricey) outlay on his Nikon gear. Sounds like technology and gear envy to me.
08-22-2008, 09:23 PM   #7
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[QUOTE=Wheatfield;323125]I had this email sent to me a few days ago.
It might be enlightening.....

QuoteQuote:
...
messed up AWB is an inconvenience as i shoot only RAW, but it's annoying to do the extra step of overriding WB on just about every shot in tricky lighting. i'm not talking about tricky white balance, just unusual patterns of light and dark in daylight. tricky color balance problems seem to be beyond the camera's ability to recognize.
...
This makes me doubt either the guy's judgment, his equipment (bad copy?) or his agenda (justify (to self) moving to new hardware,) because the WB on the K20D is top-notch - better than the K100D, but also better than the Canon 40D & XT, and Nikon D40 & D80 I've shot. Maybe the super high-enders are better, but IMO the K20D is best-in-class when it comes to WB.
08-22-2008, 09:26 PM   #8
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Yes, there seem to be a lot of defections.

Two things come to mind as a reason:

Nikon D3
Nikon D700

FF is highly alluring. I know of at least one formerly very active and very valued member of this forum that opted for a D3 over the K20D despite being a major K10D proponent when that camera debuted. Pentax really missed the boat in being slow to offer a FF body.

I, for one, can hardly wait until I have the option of FF. The main reason I haven't migrated to Nikon is the cost. I have only had my K10D for 18 months and will not be able to justify the expense of a new camera for at least another year...much less one that costs almost $3000. There is also my investment in K-mount lenses and high cost of Nikon optics. Still, I have made every effort to only purchase lenses that are FF compatible in anticipation of when Pentax finally gets it's act together.

My hope is that Pentax will offer a 16+ megapixel full-frame dSLR within the next 12 months with a price point that will be under $1200 by the time I am ready to upgrade. Pipe dreams? I hope not. If Pentax is unable to meet that challenge, they will either be out of the camera business or reduced to making cheap consumer point 'n shoot cameras for K-Mart.

Steve

(Still waiting for that large, bright, finder and broader options on the wide end...)


Last edited by stevebrot; 08-22-2008 at 09:32 PM.
08-22-2008, 09:33 PM   #9
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Sounds like stealth negative political propaganda to me. I guess if Wheatfield knows this person is legit and was really using a K20d perhaps not. The K20d and k200d have only been out a few months and it takes time to learn a body but I have learned the k200d a lot faster than either Nikon D70s I have at work. I haven't got the max out of it yet and I'm sure the k20d is better other than MP and lens calibration. Nikon is way the hell over priced for what it is. My Nikon 5700 cost more than the current k20d body back in Dec 2001. Granted Nikon did fix the CCD under recall even after the warranty had ran out. It now serves as my Point & Shoot.
08-22-2008, 09:35 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by hwblanks Quote
Is it me, or have you noticed that there seems to be quite a few people defecting to Nikon, particularly the D700, lately?

Other than the fact that it's FF and has some other whiz-bang features, is it really worth spending $2000 more over the price of a K20? I was talking with my husband (more like boring) about the subject and got to thinking what I could do if I had $3000 to blow on camera gear and running some ideas through my head as to what I could do with that kind of money if I had it. Here are some of my ideas:

1. Buy 2 K20s and a couple more lenses and sell the K10 for even more gear money.
2. Buy 1 K20, keep the K10, and buy $2000 worth of lenses and other smaller stuff.
3. Buy 1 K20 and a fast telezoom (70-200/2.8) for myself and spend the rest of the money buying Canon-mount lenses for my dad's Canon XSi.
4. Buy 1 K20 and a fast telezoom (70-200/2.8) for myself and a K20 and a lens or 2 for Dad with the idea that once Dad gets his hands on a K20 and discovers how much better it is than his Canon gear, he'll have Mom put his Canon gear on Fleabay and use the proceeds to satisfy the LBA monster in him that I created.

Yes, if I had $3000 to blow on my photography hobby, there are definitely better ways of blowing it than blowing it all on one body!

Heather
I'd go after a very long fast Sigma telephoto for my current body. Maybe the Sigma Telephoto 500mm f/4.5 EX DG APO Autofocus Lens for Pentax AF although its closer to $4600.
08-22-2008, 10:18 PM   #11
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This is a coincidence.

I was out exploring a new 8 mile trail/greenbelt area that was dedicated last week.

I unloaded my bike, 3 lbs worth of K10D, Tamron 18-250 while another guy arrived with large gimballed tripod, large 400mm lens, etc and walked off with a load over his shoulder.

I later met this guy in a field taking photos of dragon flys. I introduced myself and he was retired like i was. At least 3 times he complained about how much he spent on his full frame Nikon, large lens, 400mm zoom, 7 lbs worth, large gimballed lens, etc. So the two of us shot side by side, he with his in excess of $10,000 worth of equipment, i with my $1200 worth of K10D camera and Tamron lens. Did he appear 8000 to 9000 dollars happier than i was. I didnt think so, he started talking about how he would really like a new 70 to 200mm Nikon VR lens that was just coming out that would be a great deal more portable.

Hey, i understand that if one is a professional or a really dedicated bird enthusiast, go for it and spend the bucks. This guy just didn't seem that happy lugging around all this expensive equipment.

Be careful what you want, you might get it some day :-)
08-22-2008, 10:19 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lance B Quote
What a load of bollocks. I think this guy is just saying all this to justify his (pricey) outlay on his Nikon gear. Sounds like technology and gear envy to me.
Well, I'd be thinking you are wrong.
Which is fine.
We can do that.
08-22-2008, 10:24 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
This is a coincidence.

I was out exploring a new 8 mile trail/greenbelt area that was dedicated last week.

I unloaded my bike, 3 lbs worth of K10D, Tamron 18-250 while another guy arrived with large gimballed tripod, large 400mm lens, etc and walked off with a load over his shoulder.

I later met this guy in a field taking photos of dragon flys. I introduced myself and he was retired like i was. At least 3 times he complained about how much he spent on his full frame Nikon, large lens, 400mm zoom, 7 lbs worth, large gimballed lens, etc. So the two of us shot side by side, he with his in excess of $10,000 worth of equipment, i with my $1200 worth of K10D camera and Tamron lens. Did he appear 8000 to 9000 dollars happier than i was. I didnt think so, he started talking about how he would really like a new 70 to 200mm Nikon VR lens that was just coming out that would be a great deal more portable.

Hey, i understand that if one is a professional or a really dedicated bird enthusiast, go for it and spend the bucks. This guy just didn't seem that happy lugging around all this expensive equipment.

Be careful what you want, you might get it some day :-)
There is no accounting for making a bad buying decision. Anyone that can't recognize that a D700 class camera is way to much camera for chasing butterflies with deserves a sore back and an empty wallet.
But, if you need the performance that a camera of that class can provide, then it's what you need.
My friend is a bird enthusiast.
08-22-2008, 11:53 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by mhertel Quote
Let them go.. more lenses for us

I like that more to share around

cheers
08-23-2008, 03:29 AM   #15
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If it is me, I guess I'll have to buy the following

Pentax K20D Body
Pentax DA 16-50mm
Pentax DA 50-135mm
Pentax FA 77 Ltd
Pentax DA 35mm Macro

I guess that's just what the US$3000 could get me.. Since I'm not more of a tele person..

Now all I need is time to take some good photos! Ahahaha
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