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10-25-2017, 10:28 AM - 2 Likes   #1
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Pixel Shift roots in year 2000 by Ricoh.

Obviously it was Ricoh and JVC who pioneered Pixel Shift Technology in the Beginning of the Year 2000, just 17.5 years ago, with the Ricoh RDC-7.
Here is a German article about it: Ricoh RDC-7 mit Pixel-Shift-Technologie - digitalkamera.de - Meldung

Then they only did 2 shots, not 4 RGGB all around tp cover one resulting full color area like we now have since 2015 (and Hasselblad since 2010).


Last edited by beholder3; 10-25-2017 at 11:13 PM.
10-25-2017, 03:08 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Obviously it was Ricoh and JVC who pioneered Pixel Shift Technology in the Beginning of the Year 2000, just 17.5 years ago, with the Ricoh RDC-7.
Here is a German article about it: Ricoh RDC-7 mit Pixel-Shift-Technologie - digitalkamera.de - Meldung

Then they only did 2 shots and just moved the sensor by full pixels (same what Olympus does today). Not subpixels like we now have since 2015 (and Hasselblad since 2010).
As I understand it, the current Pentax pixel shift method moves the sensor by exactly one pixel for each of the PS shots, not subpixels, hence resulting in R G & B values that aren't interpolated.
The repeating bayer pattern of GRBG covers four pixels on the sensor, not one, and without pixel shift it is necessary to interpolate those GRBG values to arrive at an estimated R G & B for each pixel on the sensor.
The subpixel approach is what is commonly referred to as the 'super-resolution' approach, and is aimed at a 'finer' pixel resolution but still requires R G & B to be interpolated.
It can be done post camera with any number of shots taken with very subtle camera movements and a lot of maths on those images to get a 'super-resolution' result.

Cheers,
Terry
10-25-2017, 03:16 PM   #3
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you guys were reading about the new Sony, right?
10-25-2017, 05:27 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by dcshooter Quote
Very neat. I imagine having the prior art demonstrated here has been very useful at keeping patent claims form the other manufacturers at bay.
Though maybe the Ricoh didn't shift the sensor, but just took two photos and overlaid them while shifting a pixel.

10-25-2017, 05:31 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Lopez Quote
you guys were reading about the new Sony, right?
Yeah, it's a real disappointing implementation, isn't it?
10-25-2017, 06:37 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Yeah, it's a real disappointing implementation, isn't it?
Not many details yet, except it says Pixel Shift, but it looks it does the same, in-camera mixing..
162MP, wow, now its gonna overheat for sure!

---------- Post added 10-25-17 at 07:10 PM ----------

You know, its just mind bending how Sony doesnt take prisoners, they just go for the kill..
Canon's AF = "yea, we got you"
Fuji's EVF, MILC = "kill confirmed"
Nikon's high MPs = "positive hit"
Micro 4/3's video = "done"
Pentax Pixel Shift = "awaiting order"
$3200? not bad for all that tech inside..
They still have to work on their ergonomics, though. Still doesnt match the K5 and K3.
Heating some popcorn to enjoy the 3 months war..
(dont take this serious, its all for fun!)
10-25-2017, 07:21 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Lopez Quote
Not many details yet, except it says Pixel Shift, but it looks it does the same, in-camera mixing..
Oh, I didn't think it did it in-camera.



10-25-2017, 07:36 PM - 1 Like   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Lopez Quote
Not many details yet, except it says Pixel Shift, but it looks it does the same, in-camera mixing..

162MP, wow, now its gonna overheat for sure!

---------- Post added 10-25-17 at 07:10 PM ----------

You know, its just mind bending how Sony doesnt take prisoners, they just go for the kill..

Canon's AF = "yea, we got you"

Fuji's EVF, MILC = "kill confirmed"

Nikon's high MPs = "positive hit"

Micro 4/3's video = "done"

Pentax Pixel Shift = "awaiting order"

$3200? not bad for all that tech inside..

They still have to work on their ergonomics, though. Still doesnt match the K5 and K3.

Heating some popcorn to enjoy the 3 months war..

(dont take this serious, its all for fun!)


Sonys menu system=still horrible




10-25-2017, 08:08 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Oh, I didn't think it did it in-camera.
Sorry there, its done software, that would have been against Ricoh Pentax patent.my bad..
10-25-2017, 08:19 PM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Oh, I didn't think it did it in-camera.
It doesn't, according to dpreview.

---------- Post added 10-25-17 at 08:21 PM ----------

And the sensor has to "settle" between shots?

"However, unlike the system Pentax uses or the earlier, 8-shot process used by Olympus, the a7R III cannot assemble the final images in-camera. Instead four Raw files must be processed using a freely downloadable image processing application for PCs that Sony will offer. The camera must also wait between 1 and 30 seconds between shots for the sensor to settle, which is likely to exacerbate the problems of subject movement between the first and last shot."
10-25-2017, 11:14 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by tduell Quote
As I understand it, the current Pentax pixel shift method moves the sensor by exactly one pixel for each of the PS shots, not subpixels, hence resulting in R G & B values that aren't interpolated.
I did correct my statement.

---------- Post added 26th Oct 2017 at 08:19 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote

And the sensor has to "settle" between shots?

"However, unlike the system Pentax uses or the earlier, 8-shot process used by Olympus, the a7R III cannot assemble the final images in-camera. Instead four Raw files must be processed using a freely downloadable image processing application for PCs that Sony will offer. The camera must also wait between 1 and 30 seconds between shots for the sensor to settle, which is likely to exacerbate the problems of subject movement between the first and last shot."
"exacerbate" is a very nice way of stating it. On a Pentax the wait between shots is like 0,2 seconds and this times four is the reason for motion artifacts.
Now make this 5x or 10x longer the way Sony does (fail).
That is lightyears behind Pentax implementation.
10-26-2017, 06:27 PM   #12
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Yes, it will fail for general photography..
Does the forum have members that work with cell imaging? Theres only 1 thread that mention microscopic uses with a dslr..Tduell wrote something that had me thinking about it.
10-27-2017, 02:51 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
I did correct my statement. "exacerbate" is a very nice way of stating it. On a Pentax the wait between shots is like 0,2 seconds and this times four is the reason for motion artifacts.
As far as I can tell, the K-1 shoots PSR images at the sensor's maximum fps - which is a not very fast 4.5 frames per second.
The delay you're talking about could be the normal delay between the frames (for data transfer and so on). Not so on the Sony, as observed.
10-27-2017, 03:59 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
As far as I can tell, the K-1 shoots PSR images at the sensor's maximum fps - which is a not very fast 4.5 frames per second.
The delay you're talking about could be the normal delay between the frames (for data transfer and so on). Not so on the Sony, as observed.
I just took an image of a stopwatch and reviewed the four pixelshift raws. Image 1 captured: 46.686 sec. Image 4 captured: 47.498. The difference: 0,812 seconds. That is what is causing motion artifacts.

On Sony you have to expect a minimum 3x 0,1 sec (10 FPS) readout + 3x 0,5 wait = 1,8 seconds in best case theory. In Reality this can only get worse.
10-27-2017, 04:04 AM   #15
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Yes, that's what I was talking about - maximum fps. The SR has time to move the sensor and settle it in position - I wonder if it's able to do it at faster shutter speeds, too.
Thank you for testing.
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