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02-22-2007, 10:11 AM   #61
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I've taken a few thousand shots with my k10d in the past month and if it's any help I'd have to say that between the time I tested a k100 and my the purchase of the k10d I had a lot of time to look over the same pictures and compare how it all comes together in the real world.

First off the absurd idea that the noise levels on the k10d are horrible can be squashed because it's not really a whole lot of noise, but pixels where other cameras can't even touch the detail and the k10d picks out and gives the photographer the chance to pull it out and use it. When I compare the same dark areas it looks like grainy noise and chroma or whatever, but coming from someone with a degree in graphic arts and knowing whats "noise" and whats just detail thats read wrong or just not found by other cameras is something I know too much about. If you spend at most 5 to 10 minutes on that great picture with what you call "noise" you'll find that that it will be all if not 99% gone and you'll have detail that pretty much no other camera on the market can find.

Next point is the button feel of the k10d vs. the k100. Yes the k10d's buttons do feel stiffer, but if you were intelligent enough to read about the camera and see the word "weatherproofed" that means there is a stiff rubber seal behind and between each and every button on the camera. That stiff feel is what you get when you have a precision instrument thats "weatherproofed". Oh and speaking of weatherproofing and the lens-to-camera seal if you have any background in physics you'll know that a metal to metal contact thats fairly snug is more than enough to keep the entity sealed from water, weather, etc. so don't be fooled by anyone who tells you that it will hurt the camera if there is any liquid around that area.

I've heard a lot of talks about how the k10d is made of plastic, but if you know anything about "plastic" vs. polycarbonate you will know they are two very different things. first off plastic is brittle in nature and warps with time and cannot withstand the changes of temperature one bit (canon rebel is plastic). Now polycarbonate is a form of plastic that is temp. resistant (ie. low and high temperatures don't effect the bonds that hold it together as much making it strong and durable in all seasonal temperature ranges) and it makes for a great impact resistant body (a metal body would dent in the same impact that the k10d body would just absorb the blow). Now that we couple a polycarbonate shell with the steel framework we have a body that can take a hit and bounce back because the frame and body take the impact and keep it away from the major internal components that would not be able to take any bit of abuse.

Picture quality is the next area i'd like to delve into and let me just start off by saying that looking at a the same picture taken with all default settings with both cameras look very very very different indeed. The k100 takes amazing pictures with what it has inside and basically makes the competition in that price range look silly. Take that photo and use whats inside the k10d and you have what I'd like to call "the closest to film ever" style of picture. The image is much more defined, colors blend and graduate so well it's hard to tell the difference between it and a top quality 35mm with top grade film. Images are also much richer in detail especially color-wise and it is much more pleasing. It's hard to explain until you yourself go out and take the same show with both cameras so if you get the chance do it.

My last point is the shutter sound and speed only because I believe I've typed almost enough for this post, lol. The speed I believe was measured by dpreview if I remember correctly and they gave it high marks and in my experience I can't one bit of a difference between it and the k100 if maybe a bit faster. Pressing the shutter button leads to almost an instantaneous shot, which is about good enough and will only be better if the camera knew when to take the picture so we don't have to machine gun-it when our subject moves. The sound is another just silly detail that people without a little more knowledge about physics and thought wouldn't understand. Now we have to go back to the whole weatherproofing idea and remember when we seal things from water we also muffle sound so when you get a real crisp sound from something it has more of a direct path to your ear, but when the sound is left to resonate within itself then we get a sound a little less than exciting. Now there is also another item with the k10d that makes the sound of the shutter sound a bit different and it would be the anti-shake system which turns on when you press the shutter button and makes quite a racket inside the camera and since it's bigger and a tad different than the one used in the k100 the sound cannot be perceived the same way. Oh, and with my experience with the k10d's anti-shake I strapped on a a 300mm and a 400mm zoom lens and did quite a bit of nature shooting including birds, dogs, squirrels and other random forest creatures and without a tripod the pictures came out super sharp even at the most extreme length.

I hope this helps settle any of the more confusing topics that have come up in this thread and if I feel the need I'll pop back in and examine some other false points and clear it all up when my fingers heal from all the typing.

K10d 4 life! (until the k20d and beyond lol)

02-22-2007, 10:47 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
I've taken a few thousand shots with my k10d in the past month and if it's any help I'd have to say that between the time I tested a k100 and my the purchase of the k10d I had a lot of time to look over the same pictures and compare how it all comes together in the real world.

codiac,

Excellent post, clarifies a number of things for me.

But no, please, no - don't pop back into this thread! One more post like that and my resistance will fail once again and I'll run out to Wolf Camera and pay through the nose just so I can have a K10D TODAY! <g>

Will
02-22-2007, 03:52 PM   #63
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It must hurt to live in a world where the vast majority lacks in intelligence and instead discuss absurd ideas and sometimes in fact go and by other cameras.

I have suspected this for a long time but never dared to voice my firm believe. Now I can do that: Small sensors cramped with pixels make for small and filmlike noise! There you are. Now I wonder if I should go get an Olympus instead. The E-1 really is pretty slick, as soon as they throw in a further 5 MP or so I'm jumping ship!
02-22-2007, 03:55 PM   #64
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noisy but nice

It's a delight to use, the controls are wonderful, - but a noisy brute at iso 400 and above. The ease of use - for me - is more important than noise. Crops at low iso are wonderful and detailed.

02-22-2007, 05:02 PM   #65
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Get What Pleases You

QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
codiac,

Excellent post, clarifies a number of things for me.

But no, please, no - don't pop back into this thread! One more post like that and my resistance will fail once again and I'll run out to Wolf Camera and pay through the nose just so I can have a K10D TODAY! <g>

Will
I know what I am about to say may seem pedestrian. But get what you really want. As I am sure it is something you may not NEED. I could use both camera's and feel confident that I could go to press with both. I went to press with the Canon 10D with no problem. If you plan on making very large prints and don't wish to interpolate as much, go for the K10D. If you know how to up-size correctly i.e. in small increments Bicubic Smoother in PS, you can attain incredibly large and convincing images from both camera's. If you can afford the K10D and really want it, why not. We only get re-incarnated 8,999,565,142 times so why not splurge. As I said in an earlier post, one of my images from a 10D was enlarged to 3x5 meters. If you do get the K10D, get the grip. For me it is a must.

Now pull out that Cash...
02-22-2007, 05:52 PM   #66
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Grabbed my K10D this morning as I was taking some of my boys skiing. Once up the mountain I went to grab my camera and thought I had my DS instead. It turns out that just looking at the grip lying beside my K10D was not enough to will it into the bag with the camera. Boy did that 10D feel weird. With the grip it just feels so much more complete.
02-22-2007, 06:54 PM   #67
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swan looking at biscuit.. anticate swans lightning grab at biscuit.. press shutter.. with luck get interesting picture and my youngest offspring keeps his fingers.. he he









i thought they might amuse u Will..

trog
02-22-2007, 07:34 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
I've taken a few thousand shots with my k10d in the past month and if it's any help I'd have to say that between the time I tested a k100 and my the purchase of the k10d I had a lot of time to look over the same pictures and compare how it all comes together in the real world.
Okay, let's what you have discovered, then.

QuoteQuote:
First off the absurd idea that the noise levels on the k10d are horrible can be squashed because it's not really a whole lot of noise, but pixels where other cameras can't even touch the detail and the k10d picks out and gives the photographer the chance to pull it out and use it. When I compare the same dark areas it looks like grainy noise and chroma or whatever, but coming from someone with a degree in graphic arts and knowing whats "noise" and whats just detail thats read wrong or just not found by other cameras is something I know too much about. If you spend at most 5 to 10 minutes on that great picture with what you call "noise" you'll find that that it will be all if not 99% gone and you'll have detail that pretty much no other camera on the market can find.
What do you compare to, for "no other camera on the market" regarding the amount of details you mentioned?

QuoteQuote:
Next point is the button feel of the k10d vs. the k100. Yes the k10d's buttons do feel stiffer, but if you were intelligent enough to read about the camera and see the word "weatherproofed" that means there is a stiff rubber seal behind and between each and every button on the camera. That stiff feel is what you get when you have a precision instrument thats "weatherproofed". Oh and speaking of weatherproofing and the lens-to-camera seal if you have any background in physics you'll know that a metal to metal contact thats fairly snug is more than enough to keep the entity sealed from water, weather, etc. so don't be fooled by anyone who tells you that it will hurt the camera if there is any liquid around that area.
But I have handled a EOS 1Ds which is weather sealed as well as a D200 which is "moisture and dust proof" but found no such problem. Maybe those two Canon and Nikon models are made by engineers who don't know about the basic Physics or just that they are made by outer space more "intelligent" (enough) creatures which knows how to override the laws of Physics (just you suppose!)

QuoteQuote:
I've heard a lot of talks about how the k10d is made of plastic, but if you know anything about "plastic" vs. polycarbonate you will know they are two very different things. first off plastic is brittle in nature and warps with time and cannot withstand the changes of temperature one bit (canon rebel is plastic). Now polycarbonate is a form of plastic that is temp. resistant (ie. low and high temperatures don't effect the bonds that hold it together as much making it strong and durable in all seasonal temperature ranges) and it makes for a great impact resistant body (a metal body would dent in the same impact that the k10d body would just absorb the blow). Now that we couple a polycarbonate shell with the steel framework we have a body that can take a hit and bounce back because the frame and body take the impact and keep it away from the major internal components that would not be able to take any bit of abuse.
Yes, then a plastic outershell car will be more safe to be riden on a high speed highway. Good idea and you may file a patent for making a brand new safer car than ever, but yet which is cheaper to make.

QuoteQuote:
Picture quality is the next area i'd like to delve into and let me just start off by saying that looking at a the same picture taken with all default settings with both cameras look very very very different indeed. The k100 takes amazing pictures with what it has inside and basically makes the competition in that price range look silly. Take that photo and use whats inside the k10d and you have what I'd like to call "the closest to film ever" style of picture. The image is much more defined, colors blend and graduate so well it's hard to tell the difference between it and a top quality 35mm with top grade film. Images are also much richer in detail especially color-wise and it is much more pleasing. It's hard to explain until you yourself go out and take the same show with both cameras so if you get the chance do it.
I won't argue with you on this as this is subjective somehow and you claimed that you have compared the two cameras side by side for long. But do note there is also one user replied above who has both a K10 and K100 but he says that the K100D has more faithful skin response and better texture too. (so, this is not me alone to say this observation)

QuoteQuote:
My last point is the shutter sound and speed only because I believe I've typed almost enough for this post, lol. The speed I believe was measured by dpreview if I remember correctly and they gave it high marks and in my experience I can't one bit of a difference between it and the k100 if maybe a bit faster. Pressing the shutter button leads to almost an instantaneous shot, which is about good enough and will only be better if the camera knew when to take the picture so we don't have to machine gun-it when our subject moves.
Do you know what timings Phil Askey have measured? (Answer: He haven't measured the shutter lag indeed, but I did: RiceHigh's Pentax K100D Full Review
Do pls correct me if I'm wrong! )

QuoteQuote:
The sound is another just silly detail that people without a little more knowledge about physics and thought wouldn't understand.
Okay, I know that you're good at Physics while I don't (you've repeated the tone with other irrespectful words for too many times, e.g. "silly")

QuoteQuote:
Now we have to go back to the whole weatherproofing idea and remember when we seal things from water we also muffle sound so when you get a real crisp sound from something it has more of a direct path to your ear, but when the sound is left to resonate within itself then we get a sound a little less than exciting. Now there is also another item with the k10d that makes the sound of the shutter sound a bit different and it would be the anti-shake system which turns on when you press the shutter button and makes quite a racket inside the camera and since it's bigger and a tad different than the one used in the k100 the sound cannot be perceived the same way. Oh, and with my experience with the k10d's anti-shake I strapped on a a 300mm and a 400mm zoom lens and did quite a bit of nature shooting including birds, dogs, squirrels and other random forest creatures and without a tripod the pictures came out super sharp even at the most extreme length.
But how about when you hear the (shutter) sound which happened later than sooner?

QuoteQuote:
I hope this helps settle any of the more confusing topics that have come up in this thread and if I feel the need I'll pop back in and examine some other false points and clear it all up when my fingers heal from all the typing.
But pls don't point your finger to someone else who have made some points disagreed with your opinions..(oh, yes, I don't know the most primitive basics about Physics, and, I don't have the knowledge, and, I'm silly and my points are all absurd, I admitted all these..).

QuoteQuote:
K10d 4 life! (until the k20d and beyond lol)
[/QUOTE]

Yes, you can. But I won't even get it.

02-22-2007, 08:13 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
codiac,

Excellent post, clarifies a number of things for me.

But no, please, no - don't pop back into this thread! One more post like that and my resistance will fail once again and I'll run out to Wolf Camera and pay through the nose just so I can have a K10D TODAY! <g>

Will
Hi Will:

Previously I gave counsel to weigh economic depletion with the purchase of the K10D and possibly new DA* lenses.

However, I now think you should get the K10D to solve your buffer problem - but for no other reason. Also, I'd keep the K100D as backup, as the profit you'll get from selling it is not that great, really.

Luckily, I do not shoot sports and therefore the only truly-limiting issue of the K100D (buffer) has no affect on me.

Cheers :-)
02-22-2007, 09:15 PM   #70
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more questions

OK, I'm still trying to sort a couple of things out.


1. I asked in my original post if the K10D takes better pictures than the K100D. Of course, I mean other things being equal - same lighting, same subject, same photographer, same lenses, same or equivalent settings. codiac pretty clearly answers this question yes. I am perfectly prepared to accept that the K10D's images might be (even) better than the K100D's. But if they are, I have a couple of questions. First, a LOT better or just a little bit better? codiac says it's pretty noticeable. And if the K10D produces better images, WHY? Don't the cameras have the same sensor? Info on Pentax's web site seems to say that they do. (By the way, let's assume for the sake of this question that lighting is good and that the ISO for the photo is under 400 on both cameras. I don't need to hear about the K10D's high-ISO problem.)


2. Possibly related to the previous question: would 10MP matter to me? I DO NOT make large prints of my photos, nor do I make high-res prints like on the cover of magazines. Often, I hear it said that these are the only places where a higher res image matters. But that's not true, is it? Someone in this thread also mentioned that higher MP count means that you can crop a little closer and still have a usable image. If I understand that correctly, then taking a 10MP photo of a bird using a 300mm lens would, in effect, get me closer to the bird with an equal amount of detail. Does that make sense? Now THAT would also be useful to me.


These are possibly touchy issues. The K10D owners, being decent folks, don't want to say "Nah nah, our camera takes better photos than yours!", and the K100D owners, being human, don't want to hear that. Let me stipulate - in other words, it does not need to be said again - that the K100D can take GREAT photos, and the K10D can take terrible photos if you use it wrong. Not what I'm looking to be told, as I know that already. What I want to know is, are the guts and brains of the K10D the same as the guts and brains of the K100D? And if they're not, does it make a difference?


Will
02-22-2007, 09:24 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
OK, I'm still trying to sort a couple of things out.


1. I asked in my original post if the K10D takes better pictures than the K100D. Of course, I mean other things being equal - same lighting, same subject, same photographer, same lenses, same or equivalent settings. codiac pretty clearly answers this question yes. I am perfectly prepared to accept that the K10D's images might be (even) better than the K100D's. But if they are, I have a couple of questions. First, a LOT better or just a little bit better? codiac says it's pretty noticeable. And if the K10D produces better images, WHY? Don't the cameras have the same sensor? Info on Pentax's web site seems to say that they do.


2. Possibly related to the previous question: would 10MP matter to me? I DO NOT make large prints of my photos, nor do I make high-res prints like on the cover of magazines. Often, I hear it said that these are the only places where a higher res image matters. But that's not true, is it? Someone in this thread also mentioned that higher MP count means that you can crop a little closer and still have a usable image. If I understand that correctly, then taking a 10MP photo of a bird using a 300mm lens would, in effect, get me closer to the bird with an equal amount of detail. Does that make sense? Now THAT would also be useful to me.


These are possibly touchy issues. The K10D owners, being decent folks, don't want to say "Nah nah, our camera takes better photos than yours!", and the K100D owners, being human, don't want to hear that. Let me stipulate - in other words, it does not need to be said again - that the K100D can take GREAT photos, and the K10D can take terrible photos if you use it wrong. Not what I'm looking to be told, as I know that already. What I want to know is, are the guts and brains of the K10D the same as the guts and brains of the K100D? And if they're not, does it make a difference?


Will
Will,
Your questions are as reasoned and clear as your many helpful responses to those of us seeking help. I wish I could help.
Are you able to visit a camera store with your K100d and a lens with the aim of mounting your lens on a new K10d at the store and taking some test shots? Then put the lens on your K100d and repeat; then go home and compare. Having read through the voluminous and well intentioned responses so far, if I were you I would be ready to do some testing myself. But then I am more an experiential learner.
Best wishes and we will all be eager to learn of your decision.
02-22-2007, 09:25 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Well, quite some people think that I am a K100D "basher"or even a "Pentax basher"
You mean you are not?

QuoteQuote:
I am not "knocking hard" on the K10D.
You mean you are not?

You gave people this impression because of the absurd and outlandish opinion about the K10D. Your findings contradict those of most K10D owners.
02-23-2007, 03:31 AM   #73
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Differences?

QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
OK, I'm still trying to sort a couple of things out.


1. I asked in my original post if the K10D takes better pictures than the K100D. Of course, I mean other things being equal - same lighting, same subject, same photographer, same lenses, same or equivalent settings. codiac pretty clearly answers this question yes. I am perfectly prepared to accept that the K10D's images might be (even) better than the K100D's. But if they are, I have a couple of questions. First, a LOT better or just a little bit better? codiac says it's pretty noticeable. And if the K10D produces better images, WHY? Don't the cameras have the same sensor? Info on Pentax's web site seems to say that they do. (By the way, let's assume for the sake of this question that lighting is good and that the ISO for the photo is under 400 on both cameras. I don't need to hear about the K10D's high-ISO problem.)


2. Possibly related to the previous question: would 10MP matter to me? I DO NOT make large prints of my photos, nor do I make high-res prints like on the cover of magazines. Often, I hear it said that these are the only places where a higher res image matters. But that's not true, is it? Someone in this thread also mentioned that higher MP count means that you can crop a little closer and still have a usable image. If I understand that correctly, then taking a 10MP photo of a bird using a 300mm lens would, in effect, get me closer to the bird with an equal amount of detail. Does that make sense? Now THAT would also be useful to me.


These are possibly touchy issues. The K10D owners, being decent folks, don't want to say "Nah nah, our camera takes better photos than yours!", and the K100D owners, being human, don't want to hear that. Let me stipulate - in other words, it does not need to be said again - that the K100D can take GREAT photos, and the K10D can take terrible photos if you use it wrong. Not what I'm looking to be told, as I know that already. What I want to know is, are the guts and brains of the K10D the same as the guts and brains of the K100D? And if they're not, does it make a difference?


Will
In response to your final question. The guts and brains are not the same. The K10D uses different parameters that work with the 10.2 Sony sensor that are very different than that of the Sony 6.1 mega pixel sensor. There are inherent differences through out that most people would not notice on the surface that are there and can be improved with Firmware updates if need be. I.e. 50-3200 iso for example. Noise performance etc.

Ben
02-23-2007, 06:23 AM   #74
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I think the answer lies in "how do you use your camera"

IMO if you use it always/most of the time below ISO400 and are happy with that, than K10D will give you more usable pixels to work with. It might even have better DR in the shadows, but I am not fully convinced about that.

If on the other hand you find ISO 400 and above useful more frequently, than K100D should stay with you. I think this is about it, unless you have other functionality reasons to move up.

10MP would give you about 30% more crop ability, assuming perfect conditions, under less than perfect circumstances, including lens and light, that percentage difference goes down.

best to have them both and than use one or another dependable on the circumstances. I would bet that if you had them both, you would be using K10D most of the time, but there would be occasions that you would be glad that you kept K100D, for example if there is some concert/indoor event where you want to avoid using flash. I have K100D btw, and am happy with it.
02-23-2007, 06:52 AM   #75
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i have not seen any evidence that the k10 takes better pictures than the k100.. side by side true comparisons are hard to find.. i collected some same place same time comparisons and dont see any better pictures.. i have a folder full of such examples..

i have even upsized the small images to match and again dont see any meaningfull difference.. in fact with higher iso use i would say its the k100 that takes the better picture..

so Will i would say your assumption of better is just that.. an assumption.. based on ten being better than six.. the k100 is the latest in a line of six mega pixel cameras.. it makes effective use of its six mega pixels..

the k10.. well its just the k10 and mega pixels sell cameras.. if i am wrong it should be pretty easy to prove it.. a few (real life) side by side examples should soon do that..

also i am not a pentax brand loyalist.. i selected and bought my k100 purely on its merit.. who the hell are pentax.. it could equally have been another brand.. but it wasnt..

trog
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