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02-20-2007, 11:11 PM   #1
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should I upgrade to K10D?

Gosh, it's hard to find balanced comparisons between the K10D and its little brother, the K100D. Maybe they are out there (or here in this forum) but I've looked and I can't find them. So I'm posting this message.

I have the K100D. I like it. I also have a little set of lenses now that I'm content with - mostly Tamrons (18-75; 18-200; 70-300).

Nevertheless, I'm wondering what I would gain if I were to trade up to a K10D. I almost placed an order on Amazon tonight, but I decided to reflect on the matter a little more. If I were to move to the K10D, I know that I'd LOSE one thing that I like about the K100D - the ability to use rechargeable AA batteries. I'm not sure why this isn't found in all cameras. But batteries aside, what are the advantages of the K10D?

Here are the advantages of the K10D that I think would matter to me, at least a little:
  1. MUCH better continuous mode shooting. This is my biggest disappointment with the K100D and this is undoubtedly the main reason I'm thinking about the K10D now. If the K10D weren't much better in this regard, I would not think twice about it.
  2. On-camera controls. I dislike the canned scene/shooting modes on the K100D (sports, flowers, etc.) and love the fact that the K10D dispenses with them. I gather that the K10D has some other rather cool control features, including the "hyper program" (which I only vaguely understand, but it sounds useful). I find the K100D's controls usable, but nothing to get excited about.
  3. I gather that the K10D's pentaprism viewfinder is considered superior to the K100D's pentamirror viewfinder. I do not understand the difference, but the viewfinder of my K100D is one of the things that is radically superior to my old Canon compact superzoom, so I think I'd be even happier if the viewfinder were even better/brighter/clearer/bigger.
  4. I understand that the K10D's auto-focus is better than the K100D's. That sounds valuable, especially when I'm shooting moving targets like birds.
  5. Weatherproofing. Not sure how reliable this is - nobody seems to be very willing to test it by taking it out for a shoot in the rain - but it sounds to me like A Good Thing, especially as I do shoot outdoors, go camping, etc.
Here are the advantages that I don't think will matter too much to me.
  1. Ability to shoot in DNG Raw format. I like this, but it's not a big deal, as I have found it quite easy to convert PEF to DNG in Lightroom. And there's something surprising about this. I gather that the DNG files produced by the K10D are LARGER than the PEF files, by a good bit. I find this odd, because when I convert my K100D's PEF files to DNG in Lightroom, they shrink to about half their original size.
  2. 10 megapixels versus 6. On the plus side, I might be able to use megapixels as a form of digital zoom, retaining more detail when I crop my bird pictures. On the minus side, more MP = fewer photos on a card. I don't print photos much, certainly not at very large sizes. So while I wouldn't mind having the 10 MP, I would not spend $500 extra for it.
  3. Compatibility with the new lenses coming out next month.
  4. The dust reduction system. I have gotten used to changing lenses VERY carefully and using my little air bulb to blow out dust. Has not been a big problem so far.
Am I missing something here - some really sweet feature of the K10D? And the big question: is there something about the K10D that helps it take better pictures (even if only marginally better) than the K100D, other things being equal?

Will

02-20-2007, 11:29 PM   #2
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Yep a pentaprism viewfinder is brighter and the magnifaction is much closer to what your photo will be at 0.95X opposed to the 0.8something for pentamirror.

Knowing now that you shoot birds, I guess I can agree with the transition so long as your wallet does. Personally, I set the focus right on the bird or slighty ahead. The moment he takes off, I'll let the shutter go. Just one frame. There's a good chance the bird will be out of your FOV in a split second especially if you are using telephoto unless you are really fast. I dunno, maybe its just with the urban tree sparrows.

I find the GX-1L, Samsung rebranded and cousin to the previous generation family relative of the K100D, to be quite adequate.

I'd say if you can rent it for a day or two, go try it out in the setting you plan to use it and if its a big improvement over your K100D, why not?
02-21-2007, 12:49 AM   #3
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> Gosh, it's hard to find balanced comparisons between the K10D and its little brother, the K100D. Maybe they are out there (or here in this forum) but I've looked and I can't find them. So I'm posting this message.

Just see the reviews at Dpreview.

> I have the K100D. I like it. I also have a little set of lenses now that I'm content with - mostly Tamrons (18-75; 18-200; 70-300).

If you have a K100D and you get a K10D, I'm afraid you won't get an upgrade but maybe downgrade instead, image quality wise, e.g., for ISO noise, colors and jpeg sharpness.

So, you'd better off to save the K10D cost to get some fine glass, especially for those FA Pentax primes.

> Nevertheless, I'm wondering what I would gain if I were to trade up to a K10D. I almost placed an order on Amazon tonight, but I

Nope, I'm afraid and honestly speaking.

> decided to reflect on the matter a little more. If I were to move to the K10D, I know that I'd LOSE one thing that I like about the K100D - the ability to use rechargeable AA batteries. I'm not sure why this isn't found in all cameras. But batteries aside, what are the advantages of the K10D?

Haven't you found that most AA rechargeables are far from reliable for the K100D? I think the only useable solution is latest Sanyo Eneloop (or alike) but the K100D won't perform at peak at a lower voltage of 4.8V, still.

> Here are the advantages of the K10D that I think would matter to me, at least a little:

> 1. MUCH better continuous mode shooting. This is my biggest disappointment with the K100D and this is undoubtedly the main reason I'm thinking about the K10D now. If the K10D weren't much better in this regard, I would not think twice about it.

Most Pentax users didn't select Pentax for high speed :-)

> 2. On-camera controls. I dislike the canned scene/shooting modes on the K100D (sports, flowers, etc.) and love the fact that the K10D dispenses with them. I gather that the K10D has some other rather cool control features, including the "hyper program" (which I only vaguely understand, but it sounds useful). I find the K100D's controls usable, but nothing to get excited about.

If you don't use the scene modes, just leave them there. The remaining P, A, S and M modes are more than enough, already!

> 3. I gather that the K10D's pentaprism viewfinder is considered superior to the K100D's pentamirror viewfinder. I do not understand the difference, but the viewfinder of my K100D is one of the things that is radically superior to my old Canon compact superzoom, so I think I'd be even happier if the viewfinder were even better/brighter/clearer/bigger.

There is a difference but I don't think it's so important when compared with the actual image quality! I did upgrade from my *ist D to DS and then to K100D just for the sake of better image quality and better AF accuracy. Do note that both the D and DS has a larger viewfinder than the K100D.

> 4. I understand that the K10D's auto-focus is better than the K100D's. That sounds valuable, especially when I'm shooting moving targets like birds.

Nope. They are the same. Dunno about how the coming DA* will perform on the K10D with its ultrasonic AF motors, though (which the K100D doesn't support).

> 5. Weatherproofing. Not sure how reliable this is - nobody seems to be very willing to test it by taking it out for a shoot in the rain - but it sounds to me like A Good Thing, especially as I do shoot outdoors, go camping, etc.

No use for most users, I think. I won't use my DSLR in rain anyway. Also note that you need a weather sealed lens to be mounted on the K10D to make thing more meaningful!

> 4. The dust reduction system. I have gotten used to changing lenses VERY carefully and using my little air bulb to blow out dust. Has not been a big problem so far.

I'm afraid again that the DR system of the K10D is the least effective amongst all counterpart systems in this planet! See:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Reports on In-effective Dust Removal of K10D Continue

> Am I missing something here - some really sweet feature of the K10D? And the big question: is there something about the K10D that helps it take better pictures (even if only marginally better) than the K100D, other things being equal?

My humble advice is to look at the image quality first before considering all those other bells and whistles which I consider to be mostly marketing hypes.

Also, sometimes, a more simple camera is much easier to use and manoveur!
02-21-2007, 01:31 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
> Gosh, it's hard to find balanced comparisons between the K10D and its little brother, the K100D. Maybe they are out there (or here in this forum) but I've looked and I can't find them. So I'm posting this message.

Just see the reviews at Dpreview.

> I have the K100D. I like it. I also have a little set of lenses now that I'm content with - mostly Tamrons (18-75; 18-200; 70-300).

If you have a K100D and you get a K10D, I'm afraid you won't get an upgrade but maybe downgrade instead, image quality wise, e.g., for ISO noise, colors and jpeg sharpness.

So, you'd better off to save the K10D cost to get some fine glass, especially for those FA Pentax primes.

> Nevertheless, I'm wondering what I would gain if I were to trade up to a K10D. I almost placed an order on Amazon tonight, but I

Nope, I'm afraid and honestly speaking.

> decided to reflect on the matter a little more. If I were to move to the K10D, I know that I'd LOSE one thing that I like about the K100D - the ability to use rechargeable AA batteries. I'm not sure why this isn't found in all cameras. But batteries aside, what are the advantages of the K10D?

Haven't you found that most AA rechargeables are far from reliable for the K100D? I think the only useable solution is latest Sanyo Eneloop (or alike) but the K100D won't perform at peak at a lower voltage of 4.8V, still.

> Here are the advantages of the K10D that I think would matter to me, at least a little:

> 1. MUCH better continuous mode shooting. This is my biggest disappointment with the K100D and this is undoubtedly the main reason I'm thinking about the K10D now. If the K10D weren't much better in this regard, I would not think twice about it.

Most Pentax users didn't select Pentax for high speed :-)

> 2. On-camera controls. I dislike the canned scene/shooting modes on the K100D (sports, flowers, etc.) and love the fact that the K10D dispenses with them. I gather that the K10D has some other rather cool control features, including the "hyper program" (which I only vaguely understand, but it sounds useful). I find the K100D's controls usable, but nothing to get excited about.

If you don't use the scene modes, just leave them there. The remaining P, A, S and M modes are more than enough, already!

> 3. I gather that the K10D's pentaprism viewfinder is considered superior to the K100D's pentamirror viewfinder. I do not understand the difference, but the viewfinder of my K100D is one of the things that is radically superior to my old Canon compact superzoom, so I think I'd be even happier if the viewfinder were even better/brighter/clearer/bigger.

There is a difference but I don't think it's so important when compared with the actual image quality! I did upgrade from my *ist D to DS and then to K100D just for the sake of better image quality and better AF accuracy. Do note that both the D and DS has a larger viewfinder than the K100D.

> 4. I understand that the K10D's auto-focus is better than the K100D's. That sounds valuable, especially when I'm shooting moving targets like birds.

Nope. They are the same. Dunno about how the coming DA* will perform on the K10D with its ultrasonic AF motors, though (which the K100D doesn't support).

> 5. Weatherproofing. Not sure how reliable this is - nobody seems to be very willing to test it by taking it out for a shoot in the rain - but it sounds to me like A Good Thing, especially as I do shoot outdoors, go camping, etc.

No use for most users, I think. I won't use my DSLR in rain anyway. Also note that you need a weather sealed lens to be mounted on the K10D to make thing more meaningful!

> 4. The dust reduction system. I have gotten used to changing lenses VERY carefully and using my little air bulb to blow out dust. Has not been a big problem so far.

I'm afraid again that the DR system of the K10D is the least effective amongst all counterpart systems in this planet! See:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: Reports on In-effective Dust Removal of K10D Continue

> Am I missing something here - some really sweet feature of the K10D? And the big question: is there something about the K10D that helps it take better pictures (even if only marginally better) than the K100D, other things being equal?

My humble advice is to look at the image quality first before considering all those other bells and whistles which I consider to be mostly marketing hypes.

Also, sometimes, a more simple camera is much easier to use and manoveur!
My only question is do you own a K10D to make all these comments. I am just curious and not trying to offend. Some of your comments are valid but others not proven until further field reports filed by users versus written reviews immediately after the camera hit the market. I have used the K10D for the past 2 months, learned it fairly well and so far please by the results. I was considering the K100D in the fall but felt that the K10D appeared to have more of a pro feel.
In the end choosing the right camera might only be driven by individual preferences. The best way is always good research on the desired product to help you make a sound decision based on solid data to match your present and future needs. Sadly the "I want it now" preference wins more often than the common sense approach.

02-21-2007, 01:42 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Denis Quote
My only question is do you own a K10D to make all these comments. I am just curious and not trying to offend. Some of your comments are valid but others not proven until further field reports filed by users versus written reviews immediately after the camera hit the market. I have used the K10D for the past 2 months, learned it fairly well and so far please by the results. I was considering the K100D in the fall but felt that the K10D appeared to have more of a pro feel.
In the end choosing the right camera might only be driven by individual preferences. The best way is always good research on the desired product to help you make a sound decision based on solid data to match your present and future needs. Sadly the "I want it now" preference wins more often than the common sense approach.
I do not own the K10, but I have used it for 3 times already. The most important thing is my research on this camera since late August conitnuously tells me that it is a maturing camera instead of a matured one and it is surely not the body which I should invest. I have collected more than enough a full library of the real sample pics of the K10D and I have read all its reviews which I consider to have the value for reference.

In short, I shall wait for the next Pentax 10MP DSLR. Hope can see a better body in the PMA.

BTW, to me, the K10D does not have any better pro feel than the K100D. The reverse is true, at least the shutter releasing feeling, knobs and buttons are all superior to the K10D. Indeed, I can feel a longer time lag for the shutter release on the K10D than the K100D. Next time, if I can get a K10D back to my home, I shall test for the timing!

Also, the true pro feeling Pentax SLR which I can recall is only the Pentax MZ-S.
02-21-2007, 01:58 AM   #6
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WMBP - what about the weight? Ain't the 10 a notch or two up over the 100?
As Rice says, if you don't like the scene modes - don't use 'em! I don't (except when using the built-in flash).

If you can afford a K10D, but don't need to upgrade (just want to), try stalling until the next upgrade comes out, then it may really be worthwhile.
02-21-2007, 02:38 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Haven't you found that most AA rechargeables are far from reliable for the K100D? I think the only useable solution is latest Sanyo Eneloop (or alike) but the K100D won't perform at peak at a lower voltage of 4.8V, still.
I've specifically tested (empirically though) my K100D with Panasonic/GP rechargeables versus Varta/Duracell/Panasonic alkalines and have found no difference in performance. No random glitches, no slower AF, no nothing that would trouble me.

As I've seen that complaint stated over and over again and I'm deeply puzzled, I'm beginning to think I just somehow have been extremely lucky with my recharg's and at the same time unlucky with having below average alkalines which don't outperform recharg's.

Since local stores here don't carry Eneloops I can't test those, perhaps these will give me previously unseen stellar performance but I'm somewhat sceptical. Yes I know about the long charge sustainability of Eneloops being their main selling point but me always having three sets of recharg's ready (one for cam, one for flash and one backup) and recharging them often, that's not an issue for me.

What kind of problems have you experienced with rechargeables?
02-21-2007, 03:16 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by aabram Quote
What kind of problems have you experienced with rechargeables?
I have tried Panasonic 2000mAh, Sony 2100mAh, Sanyo 2500mAh NiMH on my *ist D, DS and K100D. They all share the same problem below (with the K100D most power hungry and thus problem most dominant):-

1. Batteries show half depleted just after tens of shots;

2. Slower AF and more hunting in low light;

3. Very short overall battery life;

4. Fast self discharge of batteries inside the camera.

With CR-V3 and regulated RCR-V3, the K100D is a camera which performs at its peak as it was originally designed.

02-21-2007, 03:20 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
BTW, to me, the K10D does not have any better pro feel than the K100D. The reverse is true, at least the shutter releasing feeling, knobs and buttons are all superior to the K10D. Indeed, I can feel a longer time lag for the shutter release on the K10D than the K100D. Next time, if I can get a K10D back to my home, I shall test for the timing!

Also, the true pro feeling Pentax SLR which I can recall is only the Pentax MZ-S.
That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read so far in this forum.
02-21-2007, 03:53 AM   #10
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Nothing I've heard or read about the K10D makes me want to replace my K100D. But that's just me. The K100D fits my shooting style nicely, and I haven't owned it long enough to justify replacing it because something newer is available.

Right now, I'll concentrate on investing in glass, body replacement is at least 3 or 4 generations away.

But your needs and desires differ from mine, so weigh the pros and cons as they relate to you, regardless of what others think, and make your own decision.
02-21-2007, 04:01 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I have tried Panasonic 2000mAh, Sony 2100mAh, Sanyo 2500mAh NiMH on my *ist D, DS and K100D. They all share the same problem below (with the K100D most power hungry and thus problem most dominant):
/snipped/

Hmm, I do am lucky then. I haven't experienced any of those problems with my selected recharg's. I use 2600 Panasonic and 2700 GP since I got the camera and recently added 2700 Uniross to the bunch, just to see how it holds. No problems so far.

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
With CR-V3 and regulated RCR-V3, the K100D is a camera which performs at its peak as it was originally designed.
Well, (R)CR-V3 are mostly unkown here and I don't know (there might be, but I'm unaware of it then) any single store that carries them in this godforsaken corner of Earth so I can't compare with those.
02-21-2007, 04:26 AM   #12
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I have no experience with the K100D so I cannot comment on the comparison to K10D. I have owned a K10D for a couple of months now and think it it is a terrific camera. I previously owned a Canon 300D and the K10D is is miles ahead. The following comments may be useful:

1. If you like easy manual control of speed, aperture and ISO without taking your eye from the viewfinder, the K10D is hard to beat - firmware v1.10

2. I thought the battery life of the EOS300D was good but the K10D is absolutely amazing - after several hundred photos I still have not had to recharge it (mostly hi-res JPG's and some RAW)

3. It feels and performs like a Pro camera. The weather seals are an added bonus - there are reviews which comment on the effectiveness of this aspect

4. I find the shutter response to be very good and the continuous mode ~3fps also more than adequate

5. I had considered buying either a Canon 30D or Nikon 200D (preference for the Nikon) but when I tried the K10D there was no real contest especially when you consider the price difference - the only real downsides are no metal body and both the Canon and Nikon have better in-camera sharpening algorithms, although this could easily be corrected by Pentax in a future firmware release

6. The K10D pentaprism is also a winner

7. 10.2MP versus 6MP? Yes there is an appreciable difference, especially when you want big prints or small crops. However at 6x5 or 10x15 you'd be hard pressed to tell one from the other

I have found much to like about the K10D and have not once regretted my decision, even though I have to start a new lens collection. The control offered by this camera still brings a smile of satisfaction.

Whether any of this is worth changing from the K100D only you can judge...

Chris Manners
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02-21-2007, 06:27 AM   #13
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> I previously owned a Canon 300D and the K10D is is miles ahead. The following comments may be useful:

I do believe the 300D is a more accurate camera, at least in the metering department. AF under tungsten is far more accurate than *any* Pentax DSLRs too.

> 1. If you like easy manual control of speed, aperture and ISO without taking your eye from the viewfinder, the K10D is hard to beat - firmware v1.10

I did want to have these features in the past. But later on I discovered that it's the best to decide on what ISO, which mode and concentrate on shooting *during* shooting!

> 2. I thought the battery life of the EOS300D was good but the K10D is absolutely amazing - after several hundred photos I still have not had to recharge it (mostly hi-res JPG's and some RAW)

Yes, that's Li-ion batteries can give. So if CR-V3 or RCR-V3 is used in the K100.

> 3. It feels and performs like a Pro camera. The weather seals are an added bonus - there are reviews which comment on the effectiveness of this aspect

But the lens and lens mount cannot withstand any moisture and water droplets!

I also cannot believe you can have a real "pro" camera at sub $1000 range for a DSLR. One always get what one paid for. To compare, the MZ-S do blow away the K10 miles away for the true pro hidden performance of a SLR, lighter mirror, faster response, more sensitive and decisive AF, more accurate AF, rigid and solid body and so on.

> 4. I find the shutter response to be very good and the continuous mode ~3fps also more than adequate

But the K100D is faster and crisper. For anyone who haven't tried both, one can try later on side by side to compare the two!

> 5. I had considered buying either a Canon 30D or Nikon 200D (preference for the Nikon) but when I tried the K10D there was no real contest especially when you consider the price difference - the only real downsides are no metal body and both the Canon and Nikon have better in-camera sharpening algorithms, although this could easily be corrected by Pentax in a future firmware release

Nope. If the firmware *could* make it right, Pentax should have done it long time ago. So, it is not a software issue.

> 6. The K10D pentaprism is also a winner

But the even more "clear" focusing screen makes MF even more difficult than *ist D and DS used to be.

> 7. 10.2MP versus 6MP? Yes there is an appreciable difference, especially when you want big prints or small crops. However at 6x5 or 10x15 you'd be hard pressed to tell one from the other

I do agree that enlargement for printing is not a big issue. But noise and colour shifts do!
02-21-2007, 07:36 AM   #14
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"Here are the advantages of the K10D that I think would matter to me, at least a little:"

once u get to the point of convincing yourself that the k10 actually has all these "advantages" u might as well go ahead and buy it..

i own the k100 and dont feel the need to buy a k10.. but my opinion is bound to be biased.. its a human condition..

my advice is get yourself the k10.. not because i think its better but because u clearly do.. which is all that matters really..

trog
02-21-2007, 08:24 AM   #15
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I'm shickled titless with my K100D, though I must admit if I had had the bucks to spare there is little doubt I would have gone for the K10D. I too plan on building up my glass collection, with any camera body replacement/upgrade likely three or more years in the future. That's about how often I tend to buy a new camera on average. The K100D is such an incredible step up from my old P&S Olympus C720Z that I can't imagine myself wishing to replace it sooner than three years. And around that time my son should be entering high school and the K100D will make a perfect hand-me-down for him. He has already taken a few very nice photos with it. I'm certain he will do even better once I have the chance to teach him what little I know about photography.
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