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10-31-2017, 07:18 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by tmcarlton Quote
I'm hoping for real improvement in the auto focus
We have been hoping for that for years. Ricoh has filed a couple of patents for AF, but that doesn't mean we will ever see the technology. They also have a patent for a hybrid OVF that I would like to see.

Right now all cameras have excellent image quality. What separates the companies is the support technology like AF, connectivity, & image processing. All things that Ricoh needs to really improve upon.

10-31-2017, 02:36 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Belnan Quote
If Pentax was going to release a direct k-3 replacement they likely would have done so by now. They are probably delayed because they are doing a more significant update to the top apsc camera, February or March maybe. Soon after they may release a new FF at a later date to leverage some of those technologies. But this is just speculation.


The issue I have with such speculation is people read it, take it as truth, then get disappointed when it doesn't quite happen in the manner they envisioned.


If they even do launch a K-3 II successor there is no promise the AF system will be dramatically improved over the previous body. It might be worlds better, it might just be a step improvement above the K-1's AF system. However there is a tendency, while waiting, to really work the feature set of a product to a level that exceeds what is deliverable.
10-31-2017, 04:33 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
If they even do launch a K-3 II successor there is no promise the AF system will be dramatically improved over the previous body.
At this point, what is to be gained by releasing a K-3 success that doesn't have dramatically improved AF? The K-3II is an excellent camera in every other way. Yes, they could improve the connectivity and image processing to some degree. AF is the last key technology that Ricoh needs to dramatically improve. They are already selling one of the best built and feature packed cameras you can buy for the money. If they can ever catch up in AF they will sell a lot of cameras. The new DA* 11-18 F/2.8 brings hope that the other DA* zooms will soon get updated.
10-31-2017, 05:12 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
The KP in Japan definitely comes with the small grip only. They are about 5,000 yen to purchase separately. Americans are getting a good deal on the KP by comparison.

As for the K-3 ii successor, it could come at any time without much warning, but I think it is unlikely that it is in a queue after a 645 release. Typically, the 645 inherits the latest AF system from the K-mount DSLRs, so if it follows precedent the new AF system will debut in a K-mount model. Also, the sensor of the 645Z appeared in a more expensive Hasselblad first, but we haven't seen that yet.

My guess is that the releases will be . . .
- Something K
- Something GR
- Something 645
. . . in that order
I wouldn’t be surprised to see new tech in a limited production (say25.000 units) camera like a 645x replacement as a production test before full scale up for and APSc run (300,000 units). Not predicting that, but it wouldn’t surprise me. My guess is two years + before anything new happens with FF, and KP has a longer run than we think. For GR, they have to solve the annoying sensor dust issue and invest time in the UI. For all bodies they need to build, buy or license better connectivity, and they need major modernization of the 645 lens line and more work on FF. Lots to do.

10-31-2017, 06:30 PM   #20
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As stated by some of us, only Ricoh knows when the K-3II successor will come. There are good things for those who can wait. Who knows? There might be a great improvement on the AF. However, if you're in a hurry, the KP is really a fine camera.
10-31-2017, 07:19 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
At this point, what is to be gained by releasing a K-3 success that doesn't have dramatically improved AF? The K-3II is an excellent camera in every other way. Yes, they could improve the connectivity and image processing to some degree. AF is the last key technology that Ricoh needs to dramatically improve. They are already selling one of the best built and feature packed cameras you can buy for the money. If they can ever catch up in AF they will sell a lot of cameras. The new DA* 11-18 F/2.8 brings hope that the other DA* zooms will soon get updated.
Agreed, that is my feeling too.
10-31-2017, 07:37 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
At this point, what is to be gained by releasing a K-3 success that doesn't have dramatically improved AF? The K-3II is an excellent camera in every other way. Yes, they could improve the connectivity and image processing to some degree. AF is the last key technology that Ricoh needs to dramatically improve. They are already selling one of the best built and feature packed cameras you can buy for the money. If they can ever catch up in AF they will sell a lot of cameras. The new DA* 11-18 F/2.8 brings hope that the other DA* zooms will soon get updated.

Oh I agree. Yet at the same time I find it is two different things.. 'what is to be gained' and 'if they can ever catch up.' Frankly, I'm not too convinced Ricoh will 'catch up' anytime soon. And to set all ones hopes and dreams on the crop system getting a mindblowing AF system is not all too realistic imo.

I've read soooo many threads on wanting a D500 killer.. and we don't even have a D7200 killer in terms of the AF system. Lets get the horse in front of the cart.

I'm guessing it costs a lot of money to R&D the AF system versus smaller iterative improvements while focusing more on IQ. Otherwise why wouldn't they have already gone balls to the wall with the AF system?
10-31-2017, 07:52 PM   #23
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If we can get 95% of the d7200 speed, I would be very very happy. If we hit 100%, for me that would be the max. But who knows what Ricoh will give.

10-31-2017, 08:53 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Oh I agree. Yet at the same time I find it is two different things.. 'what is to be gained' and 'if they can ever catch up.' Frankly, I'm not too convinced Ricoh will 'catch up' anytime soon. And to set all ones hopes and dreams on the crop system getting a mindblowing AF system is not all too realistic imo.

I've read soooo many threads on wanting a D500 killer.. and we don't even have a D7200 killer in terms of the AF system. Lets get the horse in front of the cart.

I'm guessing it costs a lot of money to R&D the AF system versus smaller iterative improvements while focusing more on IQ. Otherwise why wouldn't they have already gone balls to the wall with the AF system?
I don't know what the problem has been. I have heard that companies like Canon and Nikon have patents that have made it difficult, but I don't know if that is true. I do know that just 5 years ago both Sony and Fuji had pittiful AF systems, but in that very short period of time they have passed Ricoh in AF. Have you played wiht the AF of a Sony A9 or even the Olympus OMD-EMII? Both are much faster than anything Ricoh has produced.

After playing with the A9, I'm not sure Ricoh can catch up. The eye-AF on the A9 is amazing. The D5 is probably still a little faster and more responsive, but the A9 is more flexible and makes compostition a lot easier. Ricoh needs to find away to bring features like eye-AF to the OVF.
10-31-2017, 09:05 PM - 4 Likes   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I'm guessing it costs a lot of money to R&D the AF system versus smaller iterative improvements
Probably right about smaller, iterative improvements.

At this point I will recycle below this somewhat related list I made in another thread:

SAFOX AF EVOLUTION

11 AF POINTS:

K20D - SAFOX VIII
K200D, K-x - SAFOX VIII
K-7 - SAFOX VIII+
K-r - SAFOX IX
645D - SAFOX IX+
K-5 - SAFOX IX+
K-30 - SAFOX IXi+
K-50 - SAFOX IXi+
K-S1 - SAFOX IXi+
K-5II - SAFOX X
K-S2- SAFOX X
K-70 - SAFOX X

27 POINTS:

K-3 - SAFOX 11
645Z - SAFOX 11
K-3II - SAFOX 11
KP - SAFOX 11

33 POINTS:

K-1 - SAFOX 12

METERING SENSITIVITY EV RANGE:

16 segment metering sensor:

0 to 21 EV: K20D
1 to 21 EV: K200D
1 to 21.5 EV: K-x, K-r

77 segment metering sensor:

0 to 22 EV: K-7, K5, K5II/s, K-30, K-50, K-70, K-S1, K-S2
2 to 21 EV: 645D

86k pixel metering sensor:

-3 to 20 EV: K3, K3II, KP, K-1,
-1 to 21 EV: 645Z

Noticeable progress with SAFOX, IMHO, is going to need a big, non-incremental jump in the supporting PDAF hardware.

For SAFOX 13 or 14, Ricoh really need to do something like double the AF points, widen their placement across the frame, and/or do something else that is simply very clever.

And tie all that new hardware together with an upgraded metering sensor (for better colour based tracking and enabling face detection in PDAF). Plus do further work on AF algorithms and scene recognition systems, and re-work the camera interface for AF control (menus + back-panel controls).

Last edited by rawr; 10-31-2017 at 09:13 PM.
11-01-2017, 06:49 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Probably right about smaller, iterative improvements.

At this point I will recycle below this somewhat related list I made in another thread:

SAFOX AF EVOLUTION

11 AF POINTS:

K20D - SAFOX VIII
K200D, K-x - SAFOX VIII
K-7 - SAFOX VIII+
K-r - SAFOX IX
645D - SAFOX IX+
K-5 - SAFOX IX+
K-30 - SAFOX IXi+
K-50 - SAFOX IXi+
K-S1 - SAFOX IXi+
K-5II - SAFOX X
K-S2- SAFOX X
K-70 - SAFOX X

27 POINTS:

K-3 - SAFOX 11
645Z - SAFOX 11
K-3II - SAFOX 11
KP - SAFOX 11

33 POINTS:

K-1 - SAFOX 12

METERING SENSITIVITY EV RANGE:

16 segment metering sensor:

0 to 21 EV: K20D
1 to 21 EV: K200D
1 to 21.5 EV: K-x, K-r

77 segment metering sensor:

0 to 22 EV: K-7, K5, K5II/s, K-30, K-50, K-70, K-S1, K-S2
2 to 21 EV: 645D

86k pixel metering sensor:

-3 to 20 EV: K3, K3II, KP, K-1,
-1 to 21 EV: 645Z

Noticeable progress with SAFOX, IMHO, is going to need a big, non-incremental jump in the supporting PDAF hardware.

For SAFOX 13 or 14, Ricoh really need to do something like double the AF points, widen their placement across the frame, and/or do something else that is simply very clever.

And tie all that new hardware together with an upgraded metering sensor (for better colour based tracking and enabling face detection in PDAF). Plus do further work on AF algorithms and scene recognition systems, and re-work the camera interface for AF control (menus + back-panel controls).
I think some of it is latency in the system. They need faster hardware and they need to get the AF points closer together. Ultimately I think we see something like a 2MP sensor with PDAF used for the RGB sensor. This would allow for much better scene recognition and even facial and eye recognition. We would need a lot more processing power. Ricoh also needs to implement auto calibration technology for lenses so they can elminate front and back focusing.
11-01-2017, 06:53 AM - 2 Likes   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by beachgardener Quote
Yes Australia and New Zealand only get the small grip included.
That's weird, given it's the American head of state who's supposed to have small hands!
11-01-2017, 09:36 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I don't know what the problem has been. I have heard that companies like Canon and Nikon have patents that have made it difficult, but I don't know if that is true. I do know that just 5 years ago both Sony and Fuji had pittiful AF systems, but in that very short period of time they have passed Ricoh in AF. Have you played wiht the AF of a Sony A9 or even the Olympus OMD-EMII? Both are much faster than anything Ricoh has produced.

After playing with the A9, I'm not sure Ricoh can catch up. The eye-AF on the A9 is amazing. The D5 is probably still a little faster and more responsive, but the A9 is more flexible and makes compostition a lot easier. Ricoh needs to find away to bring features like eye-AF to the OVF.


I have not.. I was strongly put off by what I found was very poor VF performance in the older A7's. But I've read this is a thing of the past with the A9. The A9 is in a totally different price bracket though..


Is it any easier to develop for CDAF over PDAF or vice versa? Sony and Fuji both seemed to go headlong into R&D on their systems with serious goals in mind (and money spent?). I get the impression Ricoh is a far more conservative brand and that trickles down to their r&d. Maybe there is risk in spending money and time working on technology that may not be fully recouped on the retail side and that is their concern?
11-01-2017, 09:55 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Oh I agree. Yet at the same time I find it is two different things.. 'what is to be gained' and 'if they can ever catch up.' Frankly, I'm not too convinced Ricoh will 'catch up' anytime soon. And to set all ones hopes and dreams on the crop system getting a mindblowing AF system is not all too realistic imo.

I've read soooo many threads on wanting a D500 killer.. and we don't even have a D7200 killer in terms of the AF system. Lets get the horse in front of the cart.

I'm guessing it costs a lot of money to R&D the AF system versus smaller iterative improvements while focusing more on IQ. Otherwise why wouldn't they have already gone balls to the wall with the AF system?
QuoteOriginally posted by totsmuyco Quote
If we can get 95% of the d7200 speed, I would be very very happy. If we hit 100%, for me that would be the max. But who knows what Ricoh will give.
A friend of mine asked me about cameras & I told him that I used Pentax & Nikon cameras. I pretty much told him the whole value thing that Pentax had going on, but I told him how good the AF systems in Nikon cameras are. He basically kept going back & forth between the D7200 & the K-3II & decided to get the K-3II with the DA 16-85mm & DA 50-300PLM because of the IBIS & other stuff that Pentax offers. He came over to my house to set it up. He wanted to take some action shots of his kids playing around. I got some settings from the K-3/3II review & set it up for back button focus & tried some other settings from the sports & action threads on this forum. It has way more settings than my K-50 & it definitely focuses faster & more accurately than my K-50. That DA 55-300mm is insanely fast! I mounted that lens on my K-50 & I was surprised at the speed, but the K-50's AF performance is still not as fast & accurate as the K-3II.

Well, to cut to the chase, the K-3II is definitely a lot better than my K-50 when it comes to AF performance overall, but it still requires more effort trying to track action when I compare it to the D7200. The D7200 can lock focus really fast, track pretty well, & fire away to get a few more keepers. We changed the AF hold settings, tried single point AF, other AF selection settings, & a tried a bunch of other setting combos on the K-3II to get it to focus more quicker, but it can't really keep up to a D7200. It's not like a leaps & bounds difference, but in the end D7200 requires less effort in capturing photos while the K-3II requires more effort. It's like the K-3II has to think about it while the D7200 says,"Yes sir! Right away!". Then you also have the 3D tracking feature in the D7200 that the K-3II lacks.

Long story short, my friend is happy with his K-3II & he's pretty happy with the pictures he's getting. He's learning how to use the camera features & menu system, since he's coming from on older Canon Rebel DSLR camera. He only had a few lenses & wasn't too thrilled with Canon's current offerings, hence him looking at Pentax & Nikon. I actually told him to look at the latest Rebel, 70D, & 80D cameras, since he already had some lenses, but he wasn't too thrilled with them.

As for me, I'd be able to use a K-3II & get about the same amount of keepers that I could get out of the D7200 when shooting action, but it does require more a bit more effort, concentration, & patience. I also have more shooting experience than my friend does. After using the K-3II, I could say that I'd actually be happy enough with its AF performance if I had to buy one today. It's definitely better than the K-50. It seems like the KP's AF performance overall is a tad bit better than the K-3II, so the engineers at Ricoh are moving along in the right direction.

The engineers will definitely update the AF module in the upcoming APS-C flagship. The only thing is how much of an update are they going to do. A lot of other manufacturers are doing some really innovative AF stuff, especially in the mirrorless camera field. If they can get something that is as good as the D7200 in its own way or even better, I'll be the most happiest Pentaxian ever. I don't think they're going to aim for the Nikon D500 or Canon 7D Mark II market just yet, but if they do, I'll explode with joy. Only problem are the lenses. The 50-300 PLM is like the only super fast lens right now. They'd definitely need more, but given their full frame lens record, it would probably take them a long while to release some more faster ones.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I do know that just 5 years ago both Sony and Fuji had pittiful AF systems, but in that very short period of time they have passed Ricoh in AF. Have you played wiht the AF of a Sony A9 or even the Olympus OMD-EMII? Both are much faster than anything Ricoh has produced.

After playing with the A9, I'm not sure Ricoh can catch up. The eye-AF on the A9 is amazing. The D5 is probably still a little faster and more responsive, but the A9 is more flexible and makes compostition a lot easier. Ricoh needs to find away to bring features like eye-AF to the OVF.
It does seem like just about every camera manufacturer our there is really trying to improve their AF systems. I've played with the eye-AF on the A6500 & it's quite impressive. I imagine that the A9 & new A7RIII do even better. The only problem is that the FF bodies & lenses are pretty pricey. Their APS-C lineup of lenses is a joke too. They're either very mediocre & semi-expensive or very good & very expensive.
11-01-2017, 11:39 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
At this point, what is to be gained by releasing a K-3 success that doesn't have dramatically improved AF? The K-3II is an excellent camera in every other way. Yes, they could improve the connectivity and image processing to some degree. AF is the last key technology that Ricoh needs to dramatically improve. They are already selling one of the best built and feature packed cameras you can buy for the money. If they can ever catch up in AF they will sell a lot of cameras. The new DA* 11-18 F/2.8 brings hope that the other DA* zooms will soon get updated.
Just for now, a "K3iii" with just the change of the sensor for the KP one would be a big step in iso quality, and probably just global image quality too.
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