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11-02-2017, 03:44 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by agukha Quote
The iso raw quality of the KP seems to be about 1.5 step better than a K3ii :
Pentax KP Review: Digital Photography Review
There is no doubt that when Pentax releases the K-3 replacement that the IQ will be excellent. In the meantime the KP is here. Im curious how many shots the KP will last will the battery grip attached?

11-02-2017, 04:00 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by agukha Quote
The iso raw quality of the KP seems to be about 1.5 step better than a K3ii :
Pentax KP Review: Digital Photography Review
There is.... After they apply noise reduction to the RAW file. Also from DP Review:

"We're a bit surprised by this performance, as there was little information given to us on how Pentax actually achieved this performance. Given this sensor doesn't feature new technologies like BSI, we suspect there's some 'baking' done to the Raw files. There are clear signs of noise reduction upon further analysis of the Raw (the green channel shows blotches of no detail where other cameras do not). And this comes at a cost - sometimes decreased detail, and odd cross-hatch patterning throughout the image."

I would be willing to bet that a K-3 RAW file processed by DxO Prime would give as good or better results than the KP in terms of noise. I don't have a problem with what the KP does. The K-5 also applied in camera noise reduction to the RAW files at higher ISO and that was a great camera. There is no magical improvement here with the KP, its basically the same Sony sensor with some NR applied in camera. For people who aren't proficient with RAW processors, this is a good thing.
11-02-2017, 04:30 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There is.... After they apply noise reduction to the RAW file. Also from DP Review:

"We're a bit surprised by this performance, as there was little information given to us on how Pentax actually achieved this performance. Given this sensor doesn't feature new technologies like BSI, we suspect there's some 'baking' done to the Raw files. There are clear signs of noise reduction upon further analysis of the Raw (the green channel shows blotches of no detail where other cameras do not). And this comes at a cost - sometimes decreased detail, and odd cross-hatch patterning throughout the image."

I would be willing to bet that a K-3 RAW file processed by DxO Prime would give as good or better results than the KP in terms of noise. I don't have a problem with what the KP does. The K-5 also applied in camera noise reduction to the RAW files at higher ISO and that was a great camera. There is no magical improvement here with the KP, its basically the same Sony sensor with some NR applied in camera. For people who aren't proficient with RAW processors, this is a good thing.
Well maybe they are applying noise reduction in software, but there are other ways to reduce sensor noise. In any case the KP images look good, however not as good as FF. Good enough for most people.
11-02-2017, 04:32 AM - 1 Like   #49
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How much would you be willing to bet?
I don't believe the K-3 can reach the high-ISO performance of the KP. It's not just noise reduction from what I see.

11-02-2017, 07:00 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I don't believe the K-3 can reach the high-ISO performance of the KP. It's not just noise reduction from what I see.
I agree. I've turned off the noise reduction in the menu on my KP and it's still pretty good up to ISO 3200. I don't have a particularly high tolerance for noise, and I won't shoot at ISO's that produce so much noise that it smudges detail. With my K-5iis I was comfortable shooting up to ISO 1600. With the KP I'm comfortable shooting up to ISO 3200. While I wouldn't suggest that the KP is a stop better than the K-5iis (or K-3), if you factor in the greater resolution, it can't be that far off from a stop. Per usual, we're talking subjective perceptual evaluation, and YMMV.
11-02-2017, 07:22 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
After they apply noise reduction to the RAW file.
I think the image processing of the RAW is more than noise reduction, or at least noise reduction as we normally understand it. Noise reduction is probably a part of it, but one thing I've noticed is that KP keeps it's colour integrity really well as the ISO levels go high, which normally doesn't happen. Or that's what I see.

I suspect they have the metering system linked closely into the 'Accelerator Unit' chip, for example, and libraries of lens profiles and scene data doing something useful in there too. Or something. A dedicated chip brings a lot of extra horsepower into the camera to let the camera engineers do all sorts of image corrections other than just smoothing away noise.
11-02-2017, 07:35 AM   #52
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"It's noise reduction Jim, but not as we know it"

11-02-2017, 08:26 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
"It's noise reduction Jim, but not as we know it"
"Use the Force, Jim".

My understanding of what is really going on with the KP.
11-02-2017, 09:19 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I think the image processing of the RAW is more than noise reduction, or at least noise reduction as we normally understand it. Noise reduction is probably a part of it, but one thing I've noticed is that KP keeps it's colour integrity really well as the ISO levels go high, which normally doesn't happen. Or that's what I see.

I suspect they have the metering system linked closely into the 'Accelerator Unit' chip, for example, and libraries of lens profiles and scene data doing something useful in there too. Or something. A dedicated chip brings a lot of extra horsepower into the camera to let the camera engineers do all sorts of image corrections other than just smoothing away noise.
Its just noise reduction that is being applied prior to the file being written as a DNG or PEF. As DxO pointed out with their PRIME NR software, good noise reduction takes a lot of processing power. This is why PRIME is so slow. Ricoh is adding a processor to apply low level NR. Looking at the RAW files on DPR at 3200 I see less chroma noise, but more blotches.
11-02-2017, 09:36 AM   #55
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I'd prefer zero noise reduction or any type of corrections in my RAW files. This way I can fix as little or as much as I need when post processing, but I can live with the engineers applying some noise reduction & other corrections into the RAW files if that's how they operate. It seems like all Pentax cameras apply some kind of NR as the ISO starts to climb.
11-02-2017, 09:50 AM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Its just noise reduction
Try getting the same results with the K-3 RAW files and whatever processing. We'll continue after that.
11-04-2017, 06:13 AM - 1 Like   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
We have been hoping for that for years. Ricoh has filed a couple of patents for AF, but that doesn't mean we will ever see the technology. They also have a patent for a hybrid OVF that I would like to see.

Right now all cameras have excellent image quality. What separates the companies is the support technology like AF, connectivity, & image processing. All things that Ricoh needs to really improve upon.
Pentax innovate on AF with a new hardware sensor every few years and then refining the algorithm. The lastest iteration debuted with K3 and is really night and day vs the previous generation in K5/K5-II/KS1/KS2/K70.

It seems to be the right time for a new AF sensor. Key aspects would be covering a widder area in the frame, improving AF to get near 100% keeper rate in AFC tracking and maybe offering a few f/8 AF points to work nicely on slow lenses with TC. Something along a 7x7 cross AF points matrix and getting rid of the left and right vertical sensor would do the job for me and shall allow for both improved tracking and a more conveniant wider area.

Debuting this new sensor could also mean the entry level offer (maybe if they offer 1 day an entry level FF or for K70 replacement) that'll they be able to provide market segmentation by putting in there the already quite good current AF sensor.
11-04-2017, 06:44 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Pentax innovate on AF with a new hardware sensor every few years and then refining the algorithm. The lastest iteration debuted with K3 and is really night and day vs the previous generation in K5/K5-II/KS1/KS2/K70.

It seems to be the right time for a new AF sensor. Key aspects would be covering a widder area in the frame, improving AF to get near 100% keeper rate in AFC tracking and maybe offering a few f/8 AF points to work nicely on slow lenses with TC. Something along a 7x7 cross AF points matrix and getting rid of the left and right vertical sensor would do the job for me and shall allow for both improved tracking and a more conveniant wider area..
I had the K-7 and the K-5. I still have the K-3 and K-1. Yes, improvements have been made, but they continue to fall farther and farther behind. Even mirrorless has surpassed Ricoh in AF and that is kind of sad. Other than the Fuji GFX, I think pretty much all current generation mirrorless cameras from Sony, Fuji, or Olympus have better AF than anything Ricoh makes. The Fuji GFX is pretty awful in anything but great light.
11-04-2017, 07:52 AM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I had the K-7 and the K-5. I still have the K-3 and K-1. Yes, improvements have been made, but they continue to fall farther and farther behind. Even mirrorless has surpassed Ricoh in AF and that is kind of sad. Other than the Fuji GFX, I think pretty much all current generation mirrorless cameras from Sony, Fuji, or Olympus have better AF than anything Ricoh makes. The Fuji GFX is pretty awful in anything but great light.
I agree Pentax is lacking on AFC but the AF itself is very fast, quite accurate, work well in low light and with large appertures lenses. I guess results with this outdated AF and single point AF in AFC mode and back button AF work better than some want to admit. This is a similar mode to what many Nikon shooter use. It work perfectly on Pentax.

What our Pentax are not so good at is tracking/prediction of a moving subject accross AF points, but if you select the AF point yourself, it work nicely.

I see many people complaining that their A7RII or A6500 is unreliable in low light if they don't use a fast prime wide open and many of non top of the line mirrorless are simply much slower than Pentax for AF.

Pentax has to upgrade that AF and it is a bit overdue we all agree. That doesn't make the competition perfect and doesn't mean the AF is overall bad. Only some aspects, mostly subject tracking need improvement. On some aspects, the Pentax AF is actually better than many other cameras.

You also need to have decent lenses if you want the AF to work well and that was a problem with Pentax, some of their SDM designs are quite bad for AF.
11-04-2017, 08:40 AM   #60
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I honestly expected Pentax to make something major out of the sensor PDAF tech, which hasn't happened yet. I have plenty of patience (i.e. no money) so for now I can wait them out for a while..
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