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08-26-2008, 03:44 PM   #31
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The 50D is what the 40D should have been...it should help keep some of the Canon 40D folks from migrating to the D300.
I don't think it affects the K20D much though it does have a few cool features: much better liveview (including face detection...P&S time anyone? :-) with contrast AF finally, high speed shooting even w/ the larger images, and finally an option to disable Canon's heavy-handed NR.

Art: if I were you, I'd look at the D300 instead. Doesn't sound like the D90 is as good but you'd have to ask your wallet ;-)
The D300 also has banding when you shoot at street lights at night...you get that effect that you see in P&S rear LCD's when you point it at lights that are too bright. Everything has tradeoffs...

08-26-2008, 03:46 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
I don't see why pentax has to one up all of these features to stay competitive, why do they? why do they have to build the same thing as this and then add a few extras to have a 'killer' camera? will these features listed make someone a better photographer? are they now 'necessary' for the studio photographer? and if pentax doesn't are they again 'doomed for failure'?
Businesses stay in business by selling things. You either compete at features, value, or you sell to a market that isn't being sold to by your competition. With the Canon 50d matching some of the features and price of the K20D, it seems like the only way for Pentax to compete is to match the features it doesn't have, and to innovate something new.

I never said Pentax was doomed, I just think Pentax raised the level of semipro cameras with the K20D and now Canon it has matched it and maybe raised the level with the 50D. I think the K30D will up it once more and so on. I expect the K30D to be better than the K20D, don't you?

As for being a better photographer by having a more versatile tool why not, especially as we are talking about a semipro camera? Part of being experienced after all, is in knowing what to ignore and the path you took with developing your skill set might not be the path I take. Of coarse assuming I have a skill set is laughable in itself.

Thank you
Russell
08-26-2008, 04:40 PM   #33
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Nikon Better IQ a Myth

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote

On the other hand the D90 looks to offer a whole lot of bang for the buck. We know it will have great IQ with that 12 megapixel sensor
I know that a lot of people buy into the Nikon smoke and mirrors and marketing hype about better IQ, but go to this link and compare the D300 IQ to that of the K20D:


Imaging Resource "Comparometer" ™ Digital Camera Image Comparison Page

Pull down the K20D on the left side and select any image at whatever ISO you want (I like the mannequin sitting image as I can compare details in the jacket and shirt threads and so on). Click on the full res link to get the 100% view.

Pull down the D300 on the right side and do the same, using the same image and ISO as the K20D.

Only a blind person would not notice the stark difference in detail rendering between the two, where the Nikon, at every ISO I viewed, obliterated the details compared to the K20D.

This comparison isn't even close in terms of IQ. The 14.6mp K20d easily spanks the IQ of the D300.

Ray
08-26-2008, 04:58 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
I know that a lot of people buy into the Nikon smoke and mirrors and marketing hype about better IQ, but go to this link and compare the D300 IQ to that of the K20D:


Imaging Resource "Comparometer" ™ Digital Camera Image Comparison Page

Pull down the K20D on the left side and select any image at whatever ISO you want (I like the mannequin sitting image as I can compare details in the jacket and shirt threads and so on). Click on the full res link to get the 100% view.

Pull down the D300 on the right side and do the same, using the same image and ISO as the K20D.

Only a blind person would not notice the stark difference in detail rendering between the two, where the Nikon, at every ISO I viewed, obliterated the details compared to the K20D.

This comparison isn't even close in terms of IQ. The 14.6mp K20d easily spanks the IQ of the D300.

Ray
Neato. Unfortunately, I saw better highlights from the Nikon (blown highlights from the Pentax when the D300 was holding detail, and better shadow values, where the Nikon was holding detail when the Pentax was blocking up.
Same picture, BTW
This is why I dislike the IQ thing. It places excessive importance on one parameter (which is more a lens quality anyway), and less importance on other things which are of equal, if not greater importance.
I am reminded of a friends car. A 1965 Ford Fairlane with a great big V8 engine which has been lovingly massaged into a 500 horse power monster.
And man, does it do a nice straight line.
The only problem is that a Yugo will out corner it.

08-26-2008, 05:13 PM   #35
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Huh? No way

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Neato. Unfortunately, I saw better highlights from the Nikon (blown highlights from the Pentax when the D300 was holding detail, and better shadow values, where the Nikon was holding detail when the Pentax was blocking up.
Same picture, BTW
This is why I dislike the IQ thing. It places excessive importance on one parameter (which is more a lens quality anyway), and less importance on other things which are of equal, if not greater importance.
I am reminded of a friends car. A 1965 Ford Fairlane with a great big V8 engine which has been lovingly massaged into a 500 horse power monster.
And man, does it do a nice straight line.
The only problem is that a Yugo will out corner it.
I must completely disagree.

You cannot make details (in the highlights or elsewhere) that were smeared away by noise reduction or other parts of the sensor/processing chain. If you do not have the details to begin with, it matters not if you do a better job in the highlights or shadows.

The proof is in looking at details in both images that are somewhere near the middle exposure range.

Look at the green jacket arm, or the face of the mannequin and any number of other normally exposed areas and convince yourself that the Nikon is showing equal or better detail. If the details are not in the mid-ranges, they are not likely to magically appear in the highlights and shadows.

Lenses are part of the equation, certainly, but we do use lenses on our cameras most of the time

Regardless, the lens is not the issue. Look at a progession of 2 or 3 ISO steps starting at 200. Do you think it is the lens that is stepping on the details more and more as the ISO is raised?

Ray
08-26-2008, 06:12 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
I must completely disagree.

You cannot make details (in the highlights or elsewhere) that were smeared away by noise reduction or other parts of the sensor/processing chain. If you do not have the details to begin with, it matters not if you do a better job in the highlights or shadows.

The proof is in looking at details in both images that are somewhere near the middle exposure range.

Look at the green jacket arm, or the face of the mannequin and any number of other normally exposed areas and convince yourself that the Nikon is showing equal or better detail. If the details are not in the mid-ranges, they are not likely to magically appear in the highlights and shadows.

Lenses are part of the equation, certainly, but we do use lenses on our cameras most of the time

Regardless, the lens is not the issue. Look at a progession of 2 or 3 ISO steps starting at 200. Do you think it is the lens that is stepping on the details more and more as the ISO is raised?

Ray
I looked primarily at the low ISO image (sunlight), and was looking for blown highlights (the white shirt), and blocked shadows (under the model's hand).
Unfortunately, I'm going to give the guys test a 2 thumbs down, as he has made no attempt to optimize or match things like colour balance, saturation, the level of noise reduction, or really any other parameter.
His testing procedure leaves too much to be desired to trust his tests.
I will say that the K20 has more detail showing at higher ISO, but the Nikon obviously has the noise reduction turned up a lot higher.
I don't think one can definitely say that the K20 has a higher IQ than the D300 based on this website.
Really, I don't think one can say very much about anything being better than anything else based on this website, which is too bad, since the guy has obviously put a lot of work into it, and has allowed some faulty procedures turn the whole thing into a useless experiment.

If you like, I can ask the other photographer at my studio if I can use his D300 for an informal portrait shoot, and then do as close to the same pictures on my K20.

I don't know what lens I'll use though. It can't be one of my better ones, just to be fair to the Nikon.
08-26-2008, 07:42 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
. . . A 1965 Ford Fairlane with a great big V8 engine which has been lovingly massaged into a 500 horse power monster.
And man, does it do a nice straight line.
The only problem is that a Yugo will out corner it.
There is more than one kind of racing etc. There is also the Hot Rod scene. Then there is the NHRA. Big Daddy's Swamp Rat 34 hit 323.04 mph which would have been a blast to photograph going down the track.
08-26-2008, 07:59 PM   #38
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At iso 1600 or even iso 800, You do get a cleaner image with D300 than K20D,but you lose some details. Pentax focused on retaining details other than adding strong NR, I believe that was their intention when Samsung designed the sensor.

Because you always can reduce noise in post production,but when details are gone,they are gone forever!

I tried reducing noise on K20D Raw files in LR2,I got fairly clean and much detailed images.

If you buy a expensive DSLR and don't post proccess the images at all, then you should stick to Pentax W60!!!

BTW,anyone wants fast fps, don't buy pentax,go buy a Casio Ex-F1,it does 60 fps in 6mp,it even has a flash to do 7 fps and the images are pretty good too. 10 fps is not even close to what my Casio can do!!!

08-26-2008, 08:55 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
There is more than one kind of racing etc. There is also the Hot Rod scene. Then there is the NHRA. Big Daddy's Swamp Rat 34 hit 323.04 mph which would have been a blast to photograph going down the track.
Oh yeah!!!

But would a K20 track it?
08-26-2008, 08:57 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snapshot12 Quote

If you buy a expensive DSLR and don't post proccess the images at all, then you should stick to Pentax W60!!!
Hey!!! I just bought my wife one of those.
08-26-2008, 09:05 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Oh yeah!!!

But would a K20 track it?
That's a very good question. It wouldn't take it long to go down a 1/4 mile track.

Edit: That would be a good bench-mark for all dSLR to be tested against!
08-26-2008, 09:43 PM   #42
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I wonder how much Nikon had to pay USA Today for this:

"Breakthrough Nikon SLR shoots standard and HD video"
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/2008-08-26-slr-Nikon-video1_N.htm?csp=34

That's some nice press for a camera that isn't even official yet. I haven't cared too much about the whole live view thing as a "must have" feature, but I could actually get some use out of the video assuming the quality is decent. I think it's safe to say Nikon is going to sell a metric ton of those things.

I don't exactly know what Pentax's master plan is, but it might be about time to close up shop in the APS-C SLR business in the semi-pro market. Canon hows now outdone them with the 50D, and Nikon has a really interesting camera in the D90. If Pentax really wants to find a niche perhaps its time for a $2000 full frame (K20 specs except FF) or perhaps a rangefinder or micro four thirds type system using the limited pancake lenses for street shooters. They need something to stand out from the crowd, that is for sure, because the big two are about to swallow what's left of them up.
08-26-2008, 09:54 PM   #43
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Nikon D90 is up and running now, 12mp,4.5fps,HD movie capture...

I can get a K20D and decent high zoom HD Camcorder( Palm -sized), for less than the price of a D90...

Just read a hands-on preview on Imaging Resource,that Guy was dissappointed D90 only does 4.5fps instead of 5fps!!! How stupid can a man be!!!

Dslr is about PHOTOGRAPHY,NOT MOVIES!!!
08-26-2008, 10:14 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snapshot12 Quote
]Dslr is about PHOTOGRAPHY,NOT MOVIES!!!
Why exactly shouldn't it do all if the technology allows it? It's like people bitching about live view; if you don't like it then don't use it. Personally, I may never do video in my life with one, but if I'm out and about and I see a once in a lifetime thing it would be nice to have the option. It was slightly before my time, but it's like reading about the old timers griping about autofocus. Technology will always progress; period. For those that don't like that there's always Leica
08-26-2008, 11:01 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
and has an equal, if not better build quality.
Hold on, how does the 50D have equal or better build quality than the K20D if it's not weather sealed?

From the looks of it, it has the same half-assed sealing setup as the 40D. Maybe improved a bit, but they didn't say "weather sealed" so I'm 99% sure that it isn't.

Unless you count mag-alloy body as being superior to plastic. I wouldn't pay for that distinction though.

Last edited by Maxington; 08-26-2008 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Formatting.
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