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08-28-2008, 09:33 AM   #91
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Chip size (smaller) and lower frame rates with lower resolution.

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Also, one more thought. If overheating is going to be such a major problem why is it not an issue on any point and shoot I've ever used? Or in the new Panasonic LX3 which also offers "HD video"?


08-28-2008, 09:35 AM   #92
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Well I don't own one Andrew so I can't say how it's done. Maybe a K20D owner can jump in.
08-28-2008, 09:41 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andrew Faires Quote
I guess my question is whether the k20d opens and closes the shutter 20 times a second to achieve it's high speed frame rate? I suspect that it keeps the shutter open (similar to live view) and samples the information 20 times per second. If that's the case, then I'd wager Nikon does the same sort of thing for it's movie mode. However, I'm just guessing.
it keeps the shutter open and samples information 20 times a second

the first time i used that feature i didnt even understand what was going on hahah
08-28-2008, 09:56 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Chip size (smaller) and lower frame rates with lower resolution.
I'll give you smaller chip size, but you are just flat out wrong about the other two "reasons".

Here's a snipit from the LX3 press release:
"The Panasonic DMC-LX3 even records dynamic HD motion pictures in 1280 x 720p at a smooth 24 fps"

Let's just say that I would be willing to bet this overheating "issue" will be non existent and nothing more than pre-release speculation.

08-28-2008, 10:44 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
it keeps the shutter open and samples information 20 times a second

the first time i used that feature i didnt even understand what was going on hahah
Thanks for the info, Gooshin!
08-28-2008, 11:24 AM   #96
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Look at the bright side of this.

Cameras will have more and more "suff" packed into them. GPS, Wi-Fi, Video, MP3, depth sounder, and radar.

The marketing people will put on their focus groups, and they will discover an untaped market in the photography and camera industry.

"The camera for those that just want to take pictures"

And a new niche in the market is born. As a consumer backlash against big heavy, complex, battery hog do it all cameras, people just want a simple high quality DSLR that does nothing but take quality photos.

And the market for the Pentax "LXD Limited" opens up.

I can see the threads now:

"LXD Limited Sucks because it does not support Video Conference - Time to jump Ship?"
08-28-2008, 12:05 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
Look at the bright side of this.

And a new niche in the market is born. As a consumer backlash against big heavy, complex, battery hog do it all cameras, people just want a simple high quality DSLR that does nothing but take quality photos.
I don't know if that's going to work - I've been waiting for a cell phone that's just a telephone and no luck yet...
08-28-2008, 12:18 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
So lets say the camera shoots 24 frames per second as the D90 does. That's 86,400 frames to shoot an hour of video. Great I just spent over a grand to use the camera for 1.5 hours and then throw it out. If they are using an electronic shutter for this then I'm off base.
As others have mentioned, they don't use the mechanical part to do this. It's just like a P&S. Fire up the sensor. Sample it at a rate of 24fps. The K20D does this as well. The mirror is flipped up all the time so that's also why it doesn't autofocus in "movie" mode either.

BTW, we're not all saying it's a what we'd use the camera for...just that it's a new feature of the D90 that has raised the K20D's initial stab at it.

08-28-2008, 12:21 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by baldeagle21b Quote
I don't know if that's going to work - I've been waiting for a cell phone that's just a telephone and no luck yet...
Get an older Nokia...great sound quality (assuming you're using GSM) and fairly inexpensive.
But that's a good analogy. I use my cellphone for GPS nav, MP3...others use it for email (BB users), others use it for reminders, others like using it as bling bling jewelry. Consumers are not necessarily "pros" so the dSLR companies are probably trying to figure out what they want.
08-28-2008, 12:44 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
Look at the bright side of this.

Cameras will have more and more "suff" packed into them. GPS, Wi-Fi, Video, MP3, depth sounder, and radar.

The marketing people will put on their focus groups, and they will discover an untaped market in the photography and camera industry.

"The camera for those that just want to take pictures"

And a new niche in the market is born. As a consumer backlash against big heavy, complex, battery hog do it all cameras, people just want a simple high quality DSLR that does nothing but take quality photos.

And the market for the Pentax "LXD Limited" opens up.

I can see the threads now:

"LXD Limited Sucks because it does not support Video Conference - Time to jump Ship?"
Well...here's hoping the new Micro 4/3 system will offer a "base" model. A few of us on MFF are wishing for an RF-like model without AF, and something like a f/1.7 20mm lens (40mm field of view in 135 format). And of course pocketable.

I used to have a P&S that could do good video, but took so-so pictures (Sony M-1). Once I bought the 300D, I didn't even touch the Sony because the pics weren't that good. But wow, was that a slick and sleek camera...
QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Get an older Nokia...great sound quality (assuming you're using GSM) and fairly inexpensive.
But that's a good analogy. I use my cellphone for GPS nav, MP3...others use it for email (BB users), others use it for reminders, others like using it as bling bling jewelry. Consumers are not necessarily "pros" so the dSLR companies are probably trying to figure out what they want.
I have an older Nokia 6255, but it's not the single-colored screen model by any means. Awesome battery life, great reception, and "all" it has is are MP3/3GP/radio players.

Coincidentally, I'm thinking of going to the iPhone GPS, internet, and MP3 player in one is actually very attractive in one device. I'd rather carry that than a phone, hand-held GPS, a laptop, and separate MP3 device, since I only have a phone at this point. Granted, the iPhone isn't perfect but that's for a different day It does everything well enough that it doesn't seem like a "compromise" in some respects.
08-29-2008, 05:15 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
Look at the bright side of this.

Cameras will have more and more "suff" packed into them. GPS, Wi-Fi, Video, MP3, depth sounder, and radar.

The marketing people will put on their focus groups, and they will discover an untaped market in the photography and camera industry.

"The camera for those that just want to take pictures"

And a new niche in the market is born. As a consumer backlash against big heavy, complex, battery hog do it all cameras, people just want a simple high quality DSLR that does nothing but take quality photos.

And the market for the Pentax "LXD Limited" opens up.

I can see the threads now:

"LXD Limited Sucks because it does not support Video Conference - Time to jump Ship?"


gawd how I hope that happens, o what a joy that will be! as long as it has interchangeable finders! and they don't call it a 'limited'. man a change in market such as that could shoot pentax to the top so fast it wouldn't even be funny. canon and nikon would be left in the dust for quite some time.
08-29-2008, 04:45 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Yes that's all correct and film (movie) are 24 frames as are some Jpeg formats. But today's TV is still 30 frames (NTSC format) or 60 half frames being a 60Hz signal. Which I know is changing as we write this. The new formats Progressive is indeed i interlaced and p is full frame or not interlaced. Both are used and have advantages and dis advantages. P being single frame has higher resolution. but the P format has issues with Shutter drag and not as good for sports or other high speed action (remember we are talking about the shooting of a video and not the display of a video).
It's not NTSC that sets the 24fps, it's PAL. The new progressive HD standard had to accommodate the slower frame rate of the PAL system.

The ideal fps for maximum detail at or beyond the threshold for human acuity is 60 fps. That's a huge bandwidth leap, however.

QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
But there in lies the issues. Heat. These cameras that can shoot this type of resolution have systems in them to cool the chip(s) that capture the video. That increases the size and if not properly controlled, the noise.
The D90 has a 5 minute video time limit because of heat. Since the shutter only activates once, the critical question is can the sensor take the heat without a dedicated cooling system. I can just see a Sigma 10-20 on a D90, wide open in blasting sunlight taking the heat on that continually exposed chip up a serious degree where durability and "hot pixels" come into play. Forget mechanical activations; this is about micro-circuitry heat loads. That's a lot of energy focussed on a sensor, far more than many dedicated video lenses.

Also, the D90 video mode cannot auto-focus. I suppose that could be engineered at some later date but for now it is manual focus. However, an AF video system would be a massive power suck (again, adding to ambient heat and noise), and would place tremendous strain on the servos. That's one reason why dedicated high end video lenses are almost exclusively used in manual focus modes.
08-30-2008, 05:17 AM   #103
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so its looking more and more like this 'video' mode is about as crap as it gets, at least to me. I have a friend who shoots with a D40 who is currently drooling over the D90.
08-30-2008, 06:29 AM   #104
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Yes, you're right.

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
With the new Canon 50D release, and the D90's pending announcement, where does this leave the K20D? With the exception of in-body stabilization Pentax has lost pretty much all the headline features it once had. The 50D matches it megapixels and has an equal, if not better build quality.
Yes, you're right.

QuoteQuote:
On the other hand the D90 looks to offer a whole lot of bang for the buck. We know it will have great IQ with that 12 megapixel sensor, but video recording, better rear LCD, better operating system, and better live view are features that will make many people choose it over the K20D even though K20D should have better build quality, 2 more megapixels, and in-body SR.
Yes. But I don't think a 12MP Vs 14MP is an important concern for most people. On the other hand, IQ and noise are.

QuoteQuote:
I can't foresee many people looking past those two cameras (as well as the D300) to give Pentax a try. Will Pentax just end up lowering the price of the K20D to once again to undercut Canikon like they did with the K10D when it regularly sold for $700?
Yes, exactly. Samsung have already done that and particular K20D offers at Japan are now rather low in price:-

RiceHigh's Pentax Blog: GX-20 and Lenses are being Sold Very Cheap

If they do not have new model to upkeep themselves in the game, they have to cut price much.
08-30-2008, 02:00 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Video. Count me out on my DSLR. I do know something about the limitations it will place on the camera. Heat is a big one. I used to be a co-owner of a commercial video production studio with Sony 3 chip cams etc. Heat is a serious issue and part of the reason these cameras are so big compared to a DSLR.

There will be compromises in both mediums if they are combined. As for the artistic tool argument. A Painter does not use watercolour paint to create and acrylic painting. They use the specialized tool for the job. Artist's will have to just buy a good DSLR for that use and a vid cam for that use.

Think about this for a second. News companies use the best gear out there now and sometimes freeze a frame (actually 2 half frames) to show some detail. The IQ is crap as a still image. So want that be combined with your DSLR imaging engine? Not me!

Video is not the same as stitching 24 or 30 frames per second together. Video is 60 half frames that are interlaced to make the image smooth and to reduce flicker. These are not the same technologies and something will suffer if they are somehow combined.
Ok thanks for your thoughts on it. I also do not hope that features such as these; make it into the advanced models.


QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
it keeps the shutter open and samples information 20 times a second

the first time i used that feature i didnt even understand what was going on hahah
Exactly, suddenly I will have a whole bunch of new bottoms or in-camera menu options for movie making that I don’t need, since I want my camera dedicated for best possible IQ in traditional photography.



QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
because some people want specialized tools and are tired of everything becoming 'hybrid' that tend to do multiple things not so well.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Last edited by Jonson PL; 08-30-2008 at 02:06 PM.
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