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02-25-2018, 08:12 AM   #316
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
This happened because back when Pentax was in a store, so many store salmon were constantly stirring users away from Pentax. Trained Nikon and Canon salesmen were essentially working in most stores. Pentax cannot increase market share by putting product in these stores. What the salmon didn't tell you is both Nikon and Canon subsidize sales space in the stores. Pentax ended that practice for the above mentioned reason. "You take our money but you don't sell our product." This is complete dishonesty on the part of store owners.

You have to be careful who you trust. As a lesser known brand, Pentax need salesmen committed to understanding the brand. What Pentax learned is, if you don't have money to bribe owners, you won't get a fair shake in the retail market. Clearly given market share, that's not a battle Pentax is going to win.

As not getting business from Pentax users, the store owners brought that on themselves. Don't be feeling sorry for them.
You may be correct in your assessment of the retail market here in Canada, but this business practice of other Camera suppliers, though not so much in the Canadian Retail market, is part of the "Cost of doing business" in many parts of of the world and is as old as time itself.

I also remember when, probably before Pentax was bought out and abandoned by Ricoh, that there was a network of "Authorized" Pentax Retailers & Service Centers. made up of Local retailers an some national chains. Here in Halifax we were lucky to have both with staff very dedicated to the brand. Sadly the repair center, though still in business, is no longer considered and "Authorized" Pentax facility and the local Retailer again still in business no longer handles any camera equipment. Fortunately many the staff familiar and support the Pentax brand are now working with another local retailer.

02-25-2018, 09:09 AM - 1 Like   #317
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QuoteOriginally posted by NS_Sailor Quote
You may be correct in your assessment of the retail market here in Canada, but this business practice of other Camera suppliers, though not so much in the Canadian Retail market, is part of the "Cost of doing business" in many parts of of the world and is as old as time itself.

I also remember when, probably before Pentax was bought out and abandoned by Ricoh, that there was a network of "Authorized" Pentax Retailers & Service Centers. made up of Local retailers an some national chains. Here in Halifax we were lucky to have both with staff very dedicated to the brand. Sadly the repair center, though still in business, is no longer considered and "Authorized" Pentax facility and the local Retailer again still in business no longer handles any camera equipment. Fortunately many the staff familiar and support the Pentax brand are now working with another local retailer.
The business of being a camera retailer is a long list of dead bodies. I bought my Program Plus at Toronto Camera which at the time I was in school was one store on Young street in Toronto. They expanded to try and put stores every where, and eventually went under. Over time Henry's took their place with the same business model, main store in Toronto, satellite stores all over the place.

But Pentax faces the same problem Apple did. A built in sales force that steered customers away from Apple product. They responded by starting their own stores. Stores where their product was featured, not in a dusty unused out of the way corner of the store.. They then took control of the retail channel. The Apple price is the Apple price, you offer some other price and Apple reps will come in and pull your product off the shelves. So basically, faced with not being able to undercut the Apple price on line people take advantage of stores. Be it Best Buy, Staples, whatever. If they find what they want at one of those store they buy from the Salesman who helped them. Not the guy who offers the same thing for $50 less, because they know that price is not available.

One of my favourite "teaching moments" was the day a major chain here in Canada offered an un-autherized sale of Apple computers and ended up with no stock. Apple reps visited every one of their sites and removed all existing stock as per their service agreement. Apple wants you to sell with quality of service, not price competition.

The issue here is what can a small underdog company do to increase sales? The majority of Canon , Nikon salesmen do not know why or who to recommend Pentax to. Pentax has responded by selling on-line. Fredericks of St. Catherines typically has more Pentax stock on hand than much bigger Henry's stores. That is a corporate decision on Henry's part, I was there shortly after and saw the consequences. I walked into a Henry's in St. Catherines and went to the Pentax section. All the Pentax stuff was gone, I asked the salesman what happened. He said "I don't know, some guy from head office just came in and took it all." Just as the Apple Store is the result of corporate decisions in a lot of other companies. But the bottom line is, if people can save money buying on line, most are not going to go to a store. Personally, I'd rather have the camera delivered to my post office box here in town than drive to pick it up in a store. The only thing a store does for you is drive buy impulse buying, and I'm not sure how often that even happens in the camera business.

Apple is the only company I know that's been able to control this situation, and most people think of them as Nazi's for doing so. With Apple I go to a store if I'm in the neighbourhood, if not I order on line. It's a comparable experience either way and there is no price advantage one way or the other. I prefer to work with a real person, but if that's not possible, no problem I get the same deal at the same price. But, no one else is Apple. Apple took control of the situation. Camera companies seem to be wandering in the wilderness.

My K-1 from the closest store would have been $100 more than the on-line price. That's just not right. Apple insists the retail channel offer service. The other day I phoned up the Apple on-line store and discuss specs with a sales person, and we had a fairly comprehensive discussion. Ricoh doesn't insist on similar service from on-line sellers. The issue is on-line sellers and Ricoh itself providing very little service. They essentially don't care how cut throat the supply chain is as long as they are selling cameras. As result, there isn't a camera retailer on earth, I'd want to do business with... at least not that I know of. Everyone that put the time and effort into decent customer service has been undercut by companies that sell on-line and don't do the same.

The equation is simple. If you sell to the cut throats, legitimate retailers can't afford to sell your stuff.

And bottom line, to get to my nearest Pentax store, I have to drive to their store at cost of 3 hours of my time, pay a higher price than I can get on-line, wait for it to come to the store, drive 3 hours again to pick it up. I should support the local store, but, I've paid the higher price at retail stores before enough times to know, my business will not support a store. The money they make from me from one sale probably keeps them in business for a few hours. If everyone else goes for the cheaper price on line, it doesn't matter what I do. This has to be controlled at a corporate level. Individual consumers have absolutely no clout.

The difference between Apple and most companies is they saw what was happening and did something about it. My suspicion is the execs at Ricoh would watch the company go down the tube rather than get this under controll. They did try a few years ago, but they coupled the grab for a controll with a huge price increase, then didn't remove product from those undercutting their prices, In effect punishing their own dealers. That's the problem with copy cats. If you are going to copy Apple, you have to realize it's a whole package. You don't get to pick and choose what parts of the model you want to use. Pentax refused or couldn't take stock away from cut throat marketers, so their plan was doomed from the start. All they did was punish their remaining dealers.

Last edited by normhead; 02-25-2018 at 01:36 PM.
02-25-2018, 12:54 PM   #318
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The only thing a store does for you is drive buy impulse buying, and I'm not sure how often that even happens in the camera business.

As result, there isn't camera retailer on earth, I'd want to do business with... at least not that I know of.
+1 with Norm here 99%.

My last major in store purchase was when I was young and needed the guidance of a salesman that knew more about photography, cameras, and lenses than I did at the time. Bel Air Camera in Westwood (LA), California. There were cheaper stores and even mail order at the time, but I wanted the best service; price was secondary.

I do believe there are still a handful of such camera retailers, but they are rare and typically found in big cities like New York or Tokyo where they also do business with governments, corporations, universities and schools, as well as pros, prosumers, and consumers. However, they do have an online presence that probably generates 90% of their sales. B&H is an anomaly but I do a ton of business with them because when they didnʻt have an answer for me, they immediately directed me to Pentax Forums.

And there are many amateurs and pros that value the retail experience so much, that they do choose their Canon, Nikon, or Sony because of it. With age and experience, I do miss "test driving" but Pentax seems to be able to stay afloat from brand loyalty or the growing legions of enthusiasts that have done their homework online and prefer one click shopping.
02-25-2018, 04:19 PM - 1 Like   #319
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I don't disagree with the idea that the local neighbourhood camera store is on the endangered species list. I've always gone and ordered from the store...again now waiting for the camera to be shipped to the store, then I pick up. In my case, I'm only a short hop, skip and drive away.
I patronize the local bricks and mortar store as I want to keep them in business (yeah I know my purchases won't solely do that) and I want to get their extended warranty.

But I do note that Canon Canada sends me regular emails with deals from Canon itself on their wide variety of camera equipment. When I was trying to decide whether or not to break from long term Pentaxian tradition...my latest episode of wondering do I or don't I...was last year this time. I eventually bought the K-1 and 28-105. I'm a happy camper with this combo and I can use some of my previously bought Pentax lenses.

However, I was thinking seriously about getting a Canon 5D3 with a 24-105 L lens.

I could of bought the 5D3 from Canon Canada online , the same with the 24-105L...at reduced prices and also get an extended Canon Canada extended warranty. As far as I know I can't do anything like that from Pentax Canada, although maybe it exists, I dunno. When I think of Canon selling their wares from their own online site, makes me think is this undercutting their dealers ? Probably. But then the dealers rely so much on Canon for their daily bread, that they probably don't want to make a federal case of this with corporate Canon.

---------- Post added 02-25-18 at 05:29 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
+1 with Norm here 99%.


And there are many amateurs and pros that value the retail experience so much, that they do choose their Canon, Nikon, or Sony because of it. With age and experience, I do miss "test driving" but Pentax seems to be able to stay afloat from brand loyalty or the growing legions of enthusiasts that have done their homework online and prefer one click shopping.
Alex, I have no way of knowing if as you say Pentax has ..." growing legions of enthusiasts (Pentax) that have done their homework online and prefer one click shopping."
You could be right and as an educator in photography would have a better idea than I, for what's happening with new photographers getting into serious photography.

If Ricoh online strategy is working and actually increasing the Pentaxian fold , well that's good. You also make a good point about a modern day enthusiast doing online research on what's best (equipment) or best for them and determining through pros and cons that as we know...Pentax offers really good equipment at different price levels.

Back in my day when I was young...the previous century... I would pretty well have to talk to other photographers, check out Popular or Modern Photography magazine tests and hope for the best when it came to choosing equipment. Now in this modern age, a lot of good info (also bad) is available at the touch or two of a computer key. It's better these days, when it comes to getting a wealth of info...again thanks to the computer and online research.

Les


Last edited by lesmore49; 02-25-2018 at 04:34 PM.
02-25-2018, 05:06 PM - 2 Likes   #320
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Alex, I have no way of knowing if as you say Pentax has ..." growing legions of enthusiasts (Pentax) that have done their homework online and prefer one click shopping."
Les, I didnʻt mean to infer the "growing legions of enthusiasts" were exclusively Pentax buyers, although they are included.

Personally, I think the K-1 is way better than the 5D3, but wish Pentax also offered a 24-105mm or better yet, a 24-120mm like Nikon. But I primarily shoot primes, so a new Pentax DFA 20mm is top of the wish list.
02-25-2018, 05:26 PM   #321
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
so a new Pentax DFA 20mm is top of the wish list.
YES, we all hope it happens.
02-25-2018, 05:48 PM   #322
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A better than decent zoom is at the tops of most of our wish lists. But we bought into a system where primes are king and the zooms are just kinda there. Like autofocus. Me and my rank amatuer behind is actually pleased with that. If the killer autofocus and retina blowing zooms were important to me, I'd be shooting a Nikon or Sony.

If I could find a brick and mortar camera store without crossing state lines (Best Buy is the closest thing around here) I would have bought from them. A couple conversations about hopes, dreams, goals, budget, and gear and I would have happily given a good salesperson their commission. As it was, I made a list of what's important, read then dismissed some reviews, and essentially took a shot in the dark.

Truth be told, I was ready to pick up a d7200. I knew Nikon from the past and have a father with a lifetime of lenses for his older 8mp model. But lucky I did swing by Best Buy because I found the ergonomics of it to be, for me, only slightly better than god awful. Boy I would have been pissed dropping that kind of money on something that just plain wasn't comfortable. So again, order and hope it fits.

02-25-2018, 06:54 PM   #323
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Les, I didnʻt mean to infer the "growing legions of enthusiasts" were exclusively Pentax buyers, although they are included.

Personally, I think the K-1 is way better than the 5D3, but wish Pentax also offered a 24-105mm or better yet, a 24-120mm like Nikon. But I primarily shoot primes, so a new Pentax DFA 20mm is top of the wish list.
I agree that the K-1 is better than the 5D3, in fact that was also the opinion of the experienced sales associate who served me at the store. I share your wish for a DFA 20 mm wide angle lens.
03-05-2018, 12:49 PM   #324
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
I don't disagree with the idea that the local neighbourhood camera store is on the endangered species list.
There still many specialized camera shop, but most don't specialize in Pentax. I am convinced you'll still find them in a few years, maybe less as the market is skrinking. But they'll be there anyway.

For me the change in brick or mortar stores is that you have to adapt. Before you just needed to pay for good location and there was no other choice so people brought from you. Today with the hyper markets, the internet and all you have to really provide a service beside having a physical place and some things to sell.

The manufacturer can help that, and sure that Canon for example is better at that game. No need to look for apple. But this also come from the store itself, what kind of service does it provide that I'd want ? Quality repear center ? Good advices ? Nice discount if I am a regular buyer ? Trust that they apply the warrenty and find me a solution fast ? All the models to try ? Maybe possibility to rent or try for a week ? Traning courses or advices ?

I am sure there a lot one can do !
03-05-2018, 01:18 PM   #325
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It's not just Pentax. The last time I set foot in a camera store here in Oregon, some years ago, a sales clerk told me I should be looking at a full-frame camera "like the Canon 7D."

I suggested as diplomatically as possible that I thought the 7D might be a crop camera.

He told me I didn't know what I was talking about. I asked if he had a 7D we could look at to resolve the issue. The store didn't.

End of visit.
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