[Simen1]

The fact that Pentax isn’t cranking out sub 600 USD camera bodies is a good thing. They need to make some money or they won’t stay around.

So its a good thing Canon and Nikon recruits all beginners to EF-s and F mount? I dont think so. The trick is to get profitability at all price points, including the recruitment class, that will feed Pentax in the future. Selling a 100 000 low end cameras with 10$ profit each is better then selling 1000 high end cameras with 1000$ profit each. Why? Because of future lens sales.

Now, how can Pentax compete in the low end price race? I had some suggestions in post #11.

[gm4life]

So its a good thing Canon and Nikon recruits all beginners to EF-s and F mount? I dont think so. The trick is to get profitability at all price points, including the recruitment class, that will feed Pentax in the future. Selling a 100 000 low end cameras with 10$ profit each is better then selling 1000 high end cameras with 1000$ profit each. Why? Because of future lens sales.

Now, how can Pentax compete in the low end price race? I had some suggestions in post #11.

I don’t think making 10 dollars on the low end of things is a reality but I understand your point. The trick is to bring out good product that doesn’t damage your name/quality... The K70 doesn’t do that but I still contend let the others race to the bottom with half baked attempts. Selling in the mid to premium area of the segment is a lot better space to be in. The one Ricoh exec who was quoted said it themselves... It was posted here...

[mikesbike]

So its a good thing Canon and Nikon recruits all beginners to EF-s and F mount? I dont think so. The trick is to get profitability at all price points, including the recruitment class, that will feed Pentax in the future. Selling a 100 000 low end cameras with 10$ profit each is better then selling 1000 high end cameras with 1000$ profit each. Why? Because of future lens sales.

Now, how can Pentax compete in the low end price race? I had some suggestions in post #11.

Pentax went this route to the extreme about 10-12 years ago. After the run of their initial DSLR, a fine one- the *ist-D, which was introduced at around $1,600, a 6mp model with no SR, no WR, only screw-drive AF, and a tiny LCD screen. For a number of years thereafter, Pentax only made cheaper-but-good 6mp models at bargain prices. This worked, but owners of the *ist-D and top-notch Pentax 35mm film equipment were anxious for Pentax to keep up with other brands in better-quality camera bodies. Instead, Pentax discontinued some of their still-relevant high-end full-frame lenses. Eventually, Pentax made a blazing return to the quality market with the advent of the K-10D. But there were now gaping holes in the quality lens lineup for this new model, due to those very quality lenses having been dropped. It took a few years before replacements came along. We should not go overboard in having the bean-counters making all the decisions. Here in the US, this policy has had undesirable consequences for numerous companies, their reputations, and the products they offer.

But I do agree that Pentax should have a lower-priced entry-level model. However, I do not agree that it should again be bare-bones, stripped down to compete against Canikon"s cheapies. Pentax succeeds because they offer a higher-quality product for a price not much different than that of the competition's cheapies.

Back in early 2011, I bought a new 12mp K-r as my compact, lightweight DSLR 2nd body to my K-20D big-boy, since it received very good reviews, had aged a year so the price had dropped by about $100- to $600, body only. It WAS then competitively-priced, and it was out-performing the competition in low-noise higher ISO performance, while retaining excellent detail. It had fixed the shortcomings of the previous K-x. I got fine results and used it often when I needed its compactness, or its better higher-ISO performance.

2 years ago, in January of 2016, I decided to replace the K-r due to impressive advancements, even in entry-level models. The K-S2 that I bought being plenty good enough as my secondary lightweight body to my now K5 IIs big-boy, and far, far more camera than my K-r. A much better build quality, even having weather sealing (WR), a superior pro-style pentaprism VF with 100% coverage, efficient front and rear dial operation for better handling and ergonomics, and affording the complete exclusive Pentax Hyper System, and also the high-quality articulating rear LCD screen, a high-res 20mp sensor with even better high-ISO performance, and numerous other features and refinements. Yet, even with the better body and more weighty superior VF, the weight was not much more, and the dimensions about the same, even a little shorter!

The price had come down, since it was by then around 2 years old, and a new model was expected soon- like the K-3 II is now. I got this very fine camera from B&H for $508, with free shipping! And this was WITH a newly-designed, very unique, ultra-compact kit lens, having WR- AND quiet, accurate AF! It was truly a great deal. I didn't really need the kit lens, but it wound up being only around $10 more for the lens! And the idea that I can put this compact ensemble into a large jacket pocket- with a zoom lens too- was irresistible. And the AF is far better than the old kit zoom, which inexplicably is now still being offered in kits instead of the newer one!

This is the only truly marketable way at this point that Pentax can offer a less expensive model that makes sense. The price of this kit did creep up to around $550, but is still an outstanding deal. No other brand, even 2 years later, offers such quality and useful uniqueness in this lower price range. I truly believe that Pentax should continue this K-S2 kit for at least another year or two. The only way it should be discontinued is if the price of the K-70 should drop close to the same, and be offered with that same kit lens at a similar price.

[gm4life]

At least at B&H the least pricey crop DSLR Pentax is the K70 for 600 in the USA. I think that is a fine entry point for a couple hundred more than the race to bottom Canon and Nikon's you get ALOT more camera. I think they are good with the following...

K70 Entry Level Crop - Pentax 600 USD
KP Mid-Tier Level Crop - Pentax 900 USD
K3 II Replacement Top-Tier Level Crop - Pentax 1200 USD
K1 Full Frame Flagship - Pentax 1800 USD

The only thing still in the mix is the K3 II at 850 which will eventually go away in the next year or so. I think offering something any less expensive that doesn't include weather sealing, SR, moveable screen on the "entry" level end without good build quality is missing the mark. Again don't build a 400 USD camera just to say you have one. If it won't be up to the Pentax brand standards and features - that users expect for a reasonable price and GREAT value it does more damage to the brand than anything else. Whether you take the KP at 900 currently or the K70 in the crop world they are priced VERY well for what the end consumer gets. The K1 is a bargain in full frame too and the K3 II is the BUY of the decade for a flagship level crop DSLR even if its design is a few years old.

The argument made about lenses is fine... But really people buying 350 dollar "blue light" special Canon/Nikons crop DSLR's are seldom people plunking down 500, 750, 1,000, 1,250 etc. for GOOD glass. They are buying the "cheap-o" sub 200 dollar kit quality lenses - so the entire get them in cheap thing and they will buy "good" stuff argument most times goes out the window. Pentax really shines I think in the lens offering it has between like 400 and 1,000 bucks. I mean many of the DA Limiteds fall in this category, many of the top notch DA *'s as well as the awesome 16-85, 18-135, D FA 28-105 etc. Again Pentax doesn't need to be the cheapest but represent a good value for the performance/price. I mean how many Nikon and Canon top quality 300mm lenses can you get for a tad under 1,000 bucks like you can the DA * 300? Again NOT a cheap piece of glass but a HUGE value considering what the other boys charge. I think Pentax in the mid to mid-premium segment with SR, weather sealing is doing JUST fine in the current storm. A new top end crop APS-C K3 II replacement needs to get out in the next year or so and they have got to think about a revised K1 but they are doing fine.

[mikesbike]

If one looks closely, it will soon be revealed that many of those Canikon models being sold, particularly those in bargain price deals, are actually no longer being made. They are new old stock, and their replacement models, also sold by the same dealer, are at a significantly higher price. The newer replacement models have a few more bells and whistles, but essentially they are the same-old, having one-dial operation, a pentamirror VF with lower magnification, no weather-sealing, etc.

I think with the K-S2, Pentax could still offer a very attractive uniquely-compact kit at not much over $500 bucks, and roll over that competition. Now compared to the K-70, this is minus the pixel-shift, even better high-ISO performance, and 14 bit RAW, but the competition does not offer any of that anyway, and the K-S2 is still way ahead of them.

[Gimbeley]

I paid around $500 for my (used but like new at the time) K-5IIs in 2014 (I think new ones were around $600 at the time), and I upgraded to a K-3 shortly thereafter in 2015 for $625 (bought new). The prices on bodies seem to fluctuate wildly. Shortly after release, the prices are high, then not even a year later, the price comes down maybe 30% to promote people buying them, and then when a new model has come out, the remaining stock of the old model goes back up to MSRP. You can look at Amazon right now, and the K-3II is priced at $829, while the deprecated K-3 is almost $1100.

It does trouble me that Pentax seems to have moved away from having a pop up flash on the K-3 series (and this is the main reason I haven't upgraded to the K-3 II), and the K-70 appears to be more geared toward being an entry level camera than I'd like (no top LCD). Yeah, yeah, I know..."pop up flashes are an entry level feature," but they can really come in handy as a fill flash sometimes. Hopefully the K-3III either goes back to the basics or doesn't price itself into K-1 territory. I'm apprehensive about the K-3 becoming too "rich" for what it is, a humble crop sensor camera.

[monochrome]

Don’t forget that most family snapshotters in the 60’s and 70’s bought 126 cartridge film cameras like Instamatics and later disc cameras. Somewhat wealthier people with some skill and concern for image quality bought good rangefinders like a Yashica Electro (8,000,000 sold) or similar by Nikon and Canon. Upper middle class western families did buy SLR’s and lenses, especially Pentax cameras, and a very few bought a professional system camera like a Canon F1 or Nikon F / F2. While technology drove upgrading and brand changing of SLR’s (Olympus, Minolta), when Digital took hold the average broad-market consumer bought a compact camera, which killed film.

it was the massive, time-compressed shift to digital SLR’s, and upgrading bodies as sensors improved from 2003 - 2013 that distorted the market and business models of the camera industry.

I believe the camera part of a smartphone (which replaced compacts) fills the market segment analogous to the 126 cameras, augmented by social media connectivity. I think the vast majority of these users wouldn’t have owned an SLR. I think it is coincident timing that dSLR sales are returning to a normal market sales pace while phones experience a social-media-driven secular bull market.

The problem for camera makers is some of them are over levered and others lack cash flow from unrelated products (or related products like Fuji) to support cameras. In a world where phones are priced at a durable 35% return on investment, cameras at 8% need to be shrewdly marketed and priced and conservatively produced to remain relevant to sponsoring corporations.

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Last edited by monochrome; 01-02-2018 at 08:56 PM.