Any advantage of CCD over CMOS?

**paulh** · 02-05-2019, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by normhead

I've been going through older files, the older CCD images just don't hold up. The biggest difference being reduced shadow detail and colour accuracy in under-exposed areas. I think CCD is fine as long as the scene's dynamic range does not exceed the camera's. I sold my K20D after realizing I was never again going to be happy with it's images. Looking a back over 8 years of photos, it was the right choice. I came across a number of images worth going back and re-shooting with current gear. Just my opinion.

Norm, the K20D has a CMOS sensor, but I take your point. I still use my *ist D and K10D at times when the light is good. I also like the tones and color rendition better than what I get from my K5, which is a great camera as well. With a little work in PP, I can approximate the "CCD look" in my K5 images.

**BigMackCam** · 02-05-2019, 10:00 AM - **3 Likes**

For those who may be interested, I've posted a short article comparing the raw file colour and tone differences between my Samsung GX-10 (Pentax K10D) and Pentax K-3:

Colour and tone rendering - CCD Samsung GX-10 (Pentax K10D) vs CMOS Pentax K-3

**BigMackCam** · 02-05-2019, 04:21 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

I've been going through older files, the older CCD images just don't hold up. The biggest difference being reduced shadow detail and colour accuracy in under-exposed areas. I think CCD is fine as long as the scene's dynamic range does not exceed the camera's. I sold my K20D after realizing I was never again going to be happy with it's images. Looking a back over 8 years of photos, it was the right choice. I came across a number of images worth going back and re-shooting with current gear. Just my opinion.

I agree, Norm - the age and limitations of older sensors, whether CCD or - in the K20D's case - CMOS really shows up where dynamic range is concerned. The general performance of modern CMOS sensors compared to earlier technology is far better.

Where the K10D and GX-10 (for instance - I'm sure there are others) really shine is at lower ISO settings, in scenes where maximum dynamic range isn't of prime importance, or - alternatively - where you can successfully use bracketing to capture a few shots to be merged for subtle HDR work.

I love my K-3 and K-3II... and I have no problem getting the results I want from them. But my Samsung GX-10 produces raw files that, straight out of the camera, with very little (sometimes no) post-processing, look really good

Leumas · 02-05-2019, 06:46 PM - **2 Likes**

CCD's is still the mainstay of modern astro-photographers. (The telescope using kind)

Leumas · 02-05-2019, 07:35 PM - **1 Like**

Hadn't yet formatted the memory cards so I grabbed the RAWs again and did a quick and dirty processing.
K1 and K10D with identical processing applied.

K1 top, K10D bottom

SSGGeezer · 02-05-2019, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Leumas

Hadn't yet formatted the memory cards so I grabbed the RAWs again and did a quick and dirty processing.
K1 and K10D with identical processing applied.

The same processing? My question would be, what do the SOOC Jpegs look like and which image is more true to the vision you had when shooting? I like the K-1 image a bit more as it seems to have more life, but the K10 image is still a good one.

Leumas · 02-05-2019, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by SSGGeezer

The same processing? My question would be, what do the SOOC Jpegs look like and which image is more true to the vision you had when shooting? I like the K-1 image a bit more as it seems to have more life, but the K10 image is still a good one.

I don't know about jpegs...they're a pretty useless metric in my book, as I only shoot RAW

**UncleVanya** · 02-05-2019, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Leumas

Hadn't yet formatted the memory cards so I grabbed the RAWs again and did a quick and dirty processing.
K1 and K10D with identical processing applied.

K1 top, K10D bottom

What processing program?

Jonathan Mac · 02-05-2019, 11:22 PM

SOOC jpegs are a less fair comparison (if you're comparing the quality of the RAW results) because they really depend on the camera's built-in jpeg engine, which is something that Pentax have improved a lot over the last ten years or so. In my K200D years I switched from using SOOC, or processed later in-camera, jpegs, to using only jpegs processed from RAW on a computer because the latter were so much better in almost every way. The results were very different but came from the same RAW file.

These days with the K-3 and Fujifilm X-M1 there's no need to do that, in-camera jpegs are just fine.

MJKoski · 02-06-2019, 07:17 AM - **1 Like**

Dynamic range limitation should be worked around with HDR. That is not an issue with CCD. Overall, I would prefer CCD for tripod work if I could get a P45+ digital back for good price here locally. 645D, maybe. But P45+ kills it when doing long exposures.

normhead · 02-06-2019, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Leumas

Hadn't yet formatted the memory cards so I grabbed the RAWs again and did a quick and dirty processing.
K1 and K10D with identical processing applied.

K1 top, K10D bottom

Sure, that's what I expect, if you do the processing for the K10D I wouldn't expect the same processes to work on a different sensor. The question is, what results can you get processing each to it's strengths.

Leumas · 02-06-2019, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Sure, that's what I expect, if you do the processing for the K10D I wouldn't expect the same processes to work on a different sensor. The question is, what results can you get processing each to it's strengths.

Right.
But I was unable to duplicate the same color output, no matter how I processed it. Granted using a 10 stop ND with a long exposure is probably playing to the inherent strengths of a CCD. ( Higher color sensitivity, lower cross-talk during long exposure due to CCD being relatively passive compared to CMOS)

normhead · 02-06-2019, 07:18 PM

The K-1 and CCD image are different tonally and have different white balances. The K-1 image is purple.

I'm not buying that that is the best that can be done with it.

Here's what I'm thinking, the K-1 has almost 15 EV DR, the K10D has 11.6
In processing the same way you've compressed the K-1 image, 15 EV into 11.6 EB so a lot less contrast in the image.
I have a pretty good idea how I'd proceed after basic stuff like the white balance. I just don't believe if you white balanced both images the same way you get that result. The difference between the two is likely in the way you set your levels. Your software should always show the 11.6 DR image as more having contrast when you consider that you're spreading less EV over the same out put device.

All you've said is you can't do it. That doesn't mean others can't figure it out.

builttospill · 02-06-2019, 07:25 PM - **2 Likes**

Many comments here have suggested color is a strong advantage with a CCD sensor. While I agree, it's certainly not the biggest strength of a CCD sensor. With newer technology things like dynamic range have improved substantially, making cameras like the K-1 perform well. Even with the newest tech and sensors, my K-1, Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, and Canon 80D can't come close to my K10D's noise-free blue skies at ISO 100. I still prefer the K10D for landscapes because of its unbeatable ISO 100. I'll use the K-1 for portraits or action shots first though.

K10D and FA 77

normhead · 02-06-2019, 07:47 PM

My K100D and *ist D are long gone.
So, I can't do a real comparison, but there are many things here that are different. The K10D is 10 MP. Much larger pixels so better noise control. But to claim the K-1 isn't as good you'd have to reduce the image to 10 MP, the same dimensions and then compare. But to do a really fair comparison, you'd have to find a 10 MP CMOS sensor camera.

02-05-2019, 07:35 PM - 1 Like	#35
Leumas Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 454	Hadn't yet formatted the memory cards so I grabbed the RAWs again and did a quick and dirty processing. K1 and K10D with identical processing applied. K1 top, K10D bottom Last edited by Leumas; 04-04-2019 at 11:40 AM.

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02-05-2019, 09:55 AM	#31
paulh Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: DFW Texas/Ventura County, CA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 33,262	Originally posted by normhead I've been going through older files, the older CCD images just don't hold up. The biggest difference being reduced shadow detail and colour accuracy in under-exposed areas. I think CCD is fine as long as the scene's dynamic range does not exceed the camera's. I sold my K20D after realizing I was never again going to be happy with it's images. Looking a back over 8 years of photos, it was the right choice. I came across a number of images worth going back and re-shooting with current gear. Just my opinion. Norm, the K20D has a CMOS sensor, but I take your point. I still use my *ist D and K10D at times when the light is good. I also like the tones and color rendition better than what I get from my K5, which is a great camera as well. With a little work in PP, I can approximate the "CCD look" in my K5 images.

02-05-2019, 10:00 AM - 3 Likes	#32
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	For those who may be interested, I've posted a short article comparing the raw file colour and tone differences between my Samsung GX-10 (Pentax K10D) and Pentax K-3: Colour and tone rendering - CCD Samsung GX-10 (Pentax K10D) vs CMOS Pentax K-3

02-05-2019, 04:21 PM - 1 Like	#33
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by normhead I've been going through older files, the older CCD images just don't hold up. The biggest difference being reduced shadow detail and colour accuracy in under-exposed areas. I think CCD is fine as long as the scene's dynamic range does not exceed the camera's. I sold my K20D after realizing I was never again going to be happy with it's images. Looking a back over 8 years of photos, it was the right choice. I came across a number of images worth going back and re-shooting with current gear. Just my opinion. I agree, Norm - the age and limitations of older sensors, whether CCD or - in the K20D's case - CMOS really shows up where dynamic range is concerned. The general performance of modern CMOS sensors compared to earlier technology is far better. Where the K10D and GX-10 (for instance - I'm sure there are others) really shine is at lower ISO settings, in scenes where maximum dynamic range isn't of prime importance, or - alternatively - where you can successfully use bracketing to capture a few shots to be merged for subtle HDR work. I love my K-3 and K-3II... and I have no problem getting the results I want from them. But my Samsung GX-10 produces raw files that, straight out of the camera, with very little (sometimes no) post-processing, look really good

02-05-2019, 06:46 PM - 2 Likes	#34
Leumas Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 454	CCD's is still the mainstay of modern astro-photographers. (The telescope using kind)

02-05-2019, 07:53 PM	#36
SSGGeezer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Indiana, U.S. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,845	Originally posted by Leumas Hadn't yet formatted the memory cards so I grabbed the RAWs again and did a quick and dirty processing. K1 and K10D with identical processing applied. The same processing? My question would be, what do the SOOC Jpegs look like and which image is more true to the vision you had when shooting? I like the K-1 image a bit more as it seems to have more life, but the K10 image is still a good one.

02-05-2019, 08:10 PM	#37
Leumas Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 454	Originally posted by SSGGeezer The same processing? My question would be, what do the SOOC Jpegs look like and which image is more true to the vision you had when shooting? I like the K-1 image a bit more as it seems to have more life, but the K10 image is still a good one. I don't know about jpegs...they're a pretty useless metric in my book, as I only shoot RAW

02-05-2019, 08:29 PM	#38
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,401	Originally posted by Leumas Hadn't yet formatted the memory cards so I grabbed the RAWs again and did a quick and dirty processing. K1 and K10D with identical processing applied. K1 top, K10D bottom What processing program?

02-05-2019, 11:22 PM	#39
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,894	SOOC jpegs are a less fair comparison (if you're comparing the quality of the RAW results) because they really depend on the camera's built-in jpeg engine, which is something that Pentax have improved a lot over the last ten years or so. In my K200D years I switched from using SOOC, or processed later in-camera, jpegs, to using only jpegs processed from RAW on a computer because the latter were so much better in almost every way. The results were very different but came from the same RAW file. These days with the K-3 and Fujifilm X-M1 there's no need to do that, in-camera jpegs are just fine.

02-06-2019, 07:17 AM - 1 Like	#40
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	Dynamic range limitation should be worked around with HDR. That is not an issue with CCD. Overall, I would prefer CCD for tripod work if I could get a P45+ digital back for good price here locally. 645D, maybe. But P45+ kills it when doing long exposures.

02-06-2019, 08:17 AM	#41
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Leumas Hadn't yet formatted the memory cards so I grabbed the RAWs again and did a quick and dirty processing. K1 and K10D with identical processing applied. K1 top, K10D bottom Sure, that's what I expect, if you do the processing for the K10D I wouldn't expect the same processes to work on a different sensor. The question is, what results can you get processing each to it's strengths.

02-06-2019, 06:32 PM	#42
Leumas Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 454	Originally posted by normhead Sure, that's what I expect, if you do the processing for the K10D I wouldn't expect the same processes to work on a different sensor. The question is, what results can you get processing each to it's strengths. Right. But I was unable to duplicate the same color output, no matter how I processed it. Granted using a 10 stop ND with a long exposure is probably playing to the inherent strengths of a CCD. ( Higher color sensitivity, lower cross-talk during long exposure due to CCD being relatively passive compared to CMOS)

02-06-2019, 07:18 PM	#43
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	The K-1 and CCD image are different tonally and have different white balances. The K-1 image is purple. I'm not buying that that is the best that can be done with it. Here's what I'm thinking, the K-1 has almost 15 EV DR, the K10D has 11.6 In processing the same way you've compressed the K-1 image, 15 EV into 11.6 EB so a lot less contrast in the image. I have a pretty good idea how I'd proceed after basic stuff like the white balance. I just don't believe if you white balanced both images the same way you get that result. The difference between the two is likely in the way you set your levels. Your software should always show the 11.6 DR image as more having contrast when you consider that you're spreading less EV over the same out put device. All you've said is you can't do it. That doesn't mean others can't figure it out.

02-06-2019, 07:25 PM - 2 Likes	#44
builttospill Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Utah, Idaho Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,398	Many comments here have suggested color is a strong advantage with a CCD sensor. While I agree, it's certainly not the biggest strength of a CCD sensor. With newer technology things like dynamic range have improved substantially, making cameras like the K-1 perform well. Even with the newest tech and sensors, my K-1, Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, and Canon 80D can't come close to my K10D's noise-free blue skies at ISO 100. I still prefer the K10D for landscapes because of its unbeatable ISO 100. I'll use the K-1 for portraits or action shots first though. K10D and FA 77

02-06-2019, 07:47 PM	#45
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	My K100D and *ist D are long gone. So, I can't do a real comparison, but there are many things here that are different. The K10D is 10 MP. Much larger pixels so better noise control. But to claim the K-1 isn't as good you'd have to reduce the image to 10 MP, the same dimensions and then compare. But to do a really fair comparison, you'd have to find a 10 MP CMOS sensor camera.