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04-12-2018, 01:26 PM   #1
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18650

I was looking around for some electrical transportation and thus one looks at battery's. So I came across something that made me wonder. Why do camera makers, Pentax is one, not use one of those popular and large new battery's that Tesla uses, in their large camera's?

Lithium-ion battery - Wikipedia

The 18650 is the most used one. In the model S they have 7104 of these cells.

A camera like K-1 could maybe use 2 of them. On the other hand a K-02 mirrorless with two of them would be a cracker compared to the competition, energy wise.

Anyone an idea about this or how this works?

04-12-2018, 01:42 PM   #2
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You could have a set of 6 into the battery grip of a K1, which, [with a step-down dc-dc converter on the main board (wait for Pentax K1 Mk 3)], would give K1 a CIPA capacity of something like 12000 shots :-), at 4.4 FPS, you can shoot for a while.
04-12-2018, 01:49 PM   #3
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I wondered exactly the same, until I saw the price difference between the 18650 (even of the protected type, which is mandatory) and the proprietary battery packs.
Although some people would certainly complain (whine) about the space 2 of these (you need 2 to get the voltage) would take up, and the weight, and whatever else they'd find to complain about (I hope complaining about everything is a fad, or the world as we know it is doomed, not just Pentax).
These would be great for mirrorless cameras, but then again, size...
04-12-2018, 01:50 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You could have a set of 6 into the battery grip of a K1, which, [with a step-down dc-dc converter on the main board (wait for Pentax K1 Mk 3)], would give K1 a CIPA capacity of something like 12000 shots :-), at 4.4 FPS, you can shoot for a while.
A KP with just one 18650 would have great battery life. Is this an option, technical?

04-12-2018, 01:58 PM   #5
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Why the step down dc-dc? You could have those 6 batt. set as 3*2, and the voltage would be the same, except with 10000mAh , instead of the 1860 of the Li90.
Yes, shoot for a "while"
04-12-2018, 01:58 PM - 1 Like   #6
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The 18650 is a bit too big -- being both fatter and much longer than the cells inside the LI90.

The other downside of using individual cells instead of a two-cell pack is the risk of the user putting in mis-matched cells such as fresh cell and a partially discharged cell or a brand new cell and an older cell. Mismatched cells are much more likely to cause camera lock-ups, data loss, and to permanently damage the weaker/older cell.
04-12-2018, 01:58 PM - 1 Like   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
A KP with just one 18650 would have great battery life. Is this an option, technical?
That means change, and you know that change is a hard think to do in Pentax. If you tell them to do it, they won't do it because the idea doesn't come from them and they want to be different. It's the same as AF, if you ask for it , they don't do.

---------- Post added 12-04-18 at 23:00 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by dafbp Quote
Why the step down dc-dc? You could have those 6 batt. set as 3*2, and the voltage would be the same, except with 10000mAh
not sure what happens if you connect multiple Li-Ion battery cells in parallel? you would do it from a distance I suppose?

---------- Post added 12-04-18 at 23:03 ----------

On top of pixel shift, Pentax could do energy harvesting from the sensor SR mechanism collecting energy when the photographer is walking.

04-12-2018, 02:05 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The 18650 is a bit too big -- being both fatter and much longer than the cells inside the LI90.

The other downside of using individual cells instead of a two-cell pack is the risk of the user putting in mis-matched cells such as fresh cell and a partially discharged cell or a brand new cell and an older cell. Mismatched cells are much more likely to cause camera lock-ups, data loss, and to permanently damage the weaker/older cell.
So they have to be paired to be of same age and use? Yes they are bigger, but are they more energy efficiënt?
04-12-2018, 02:06 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That means change, and you know that change is a hard think to do in Pentax. If you tell them to do it, they won't do it because the idea doesn't come from them and they want to be different. It's the same as AF, if you ask for it , they don't do.

---------- Post added 12-04-18 at 23:00 ----------


not sure what happens if you connect multiple Li-Ion battery cells in parallel? you would do it from a distance I suppose?
Well, I've seen far more change in Pentax designs over the years than from most other makes. As to the battery issue, which keeps coming up regarding the KP, if the battery were smaller yet longer-lasting, that would be a no-brainer. But the KP was designed with down-sizing as a primary goal, along with very high quality construction and imaging, and still having an advanced control set. Their answer to this conundrum was the added battery grip, which can greatly extend battery life and performance, when and if one wants the tradeoff of compactness- yet still being more compact than other bodies with an added battery grip.

Last edited by mikesbike; 04-12-2018 at 02:12 PM.
04-12-2018, 02:11 PM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That means change, and you know that change is a hard think to do in Pentax. If you tell them to do it, they won't do it because the idea doesn't come from them and they want to be different. It's the same as AF, if you ask for it , they don't do.
...
not sure what happens if you connect multiple Li-Ion battery cells in parallel? you would do it from a distance I suppose?[COLOR="Silver"]
Like your AF explanation
The problem isn't connecting them in parallel, it's the serial connection that generates the problems, such as mentioned by photoptimist about unbalanced cells (although the proprietary cells are still 2 serial cells, so still have the problem, but to a lesser extent).
In a parallel connection they balance naturally.
04-12-2018, 02:19 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
Well, I've seen far more change in Pentax designs over the years than from most other makes. As to the battery issue, which keeps coming up regarding the KP, if the battery were smaller yet longer-lasting, that would be a no-brainer. But the KP was designed with down-sizing as a primary goal, along with very high quality construction and imaging, and still having an advanced control set. Their answer to this conundrum was the added battery grip, which can greatly extend battery life and performance, when and if one wants the tradeoff of compactness- yet still being more compact than other bodies with an added battery grip.
No one wants choice, or wants to attach something or do something to get what they want. People want exactly what they want without the need to buy anything or do anything extra, and they want what they want whether or not the camera released had an entirely different design purpose than what they wanted.
04-12-2018, 02:22 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
No one wants choice, or wants to attach something or do something to get what they want. People want exactly what they want without the need to buy anything or do anything extra, and they want what they want whether or not the camera released had an entirely different design purpose than what they wanted.
Shouldn't have had the * shots of Port on top of the beer, now my brain can't handle this...
04-12-2018, 02:49 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
So they have to be paired to be of same age and use? Yes they are bigger, but are they more energy efficiënt?
More energy efficient? That's hard to say. 18650's have more volume than the NI90 cells so they certainly store more total energy and most can probably can put out more peak power.

The one tricky part of battery design is that bigger can be risky . LiIon batteries have a nasty habit of spontaneous combustion if any tiny little part of them gets above a certain critical temperature. Large batteries have a serious heat dissipation problem which is probably why Tesla is using thousands of tiny batteries instead of a few big ones. (It's also why the Boeing 787 had some on-board fires when it first came out). Whether an 18650 would be safe if you held down the shutter button would require a bit of calculation although I suspect it would be.

The other issue is that 18650 is just a dimensional size specification (just like AA or AAA) and not a electrical spec. It doesn't guarantee either the total energy storage capacity of the battery or the maximum current of the battery (crucial for high-drain applications like digital cameras). In fact these two electronic specs have a trade-off. Higher capacity batteries often have lower maximum currents which means they might actually get fewer shots than a lower-capacity, higher-current battery.
04-12-2018, 02:57 PM - 2 Likes   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That means change, and you know that change is a hard think to do in Pentax. If you tell them to do it, they won't do it because the idea doesn't come from them and they want to be different
With respect, I don't think that's the case at all. If Ricoh / Pentax sees an opportunity to leverage something beneficial in terms of manufacturing cost, logistics, business risk and end product, I've no doubt they'll do it. They don't have the luxury of being different for the very sake of it. This is a division of a publicly-traded, global corporation we're talking about... not some rebellious privately-owned start-up.
04-12-2018, 03:04 PM   #15
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So far as I know, there is no efficiency benefit to the 18650... it's simply a useful form factor and capacity for a number of applications. I have a couple of shortwave radios that use the 18650 cell instead of AAs. There's nothing remarkable about them in terms of battery life compared to equivalent lithium ion AA cells offering similar voltage and capacity.
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