Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor?

benjikan · 02-23-2007, 07:03 AM

Just a little survey that I might want to pass on to Pentax...Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor and Why?

What would be the benefits of such a format and would we be willing to spend the extra bucks to do so?

Best Wishes
Ben

Last edited by benjikan; 02-24-2007 at 12:29 PM.

Adam · 02-23-2007, 07:07 AM

I think I've figured out why the DA*'s have this crop factor

Since they're "co-developed" with Tokina, and Tokina delivers Nikon and Canon mount lenses, the image circle had to be large enough to cover their sensors. Isn't Canon's crop factor 1.3x?

wildboar · 02-23-2007, 07:45 AM

I'd pay extra for the 1.3x. That would make my 21mm and 40mm closer to the lenses I used in the film days (28 and 50), and anything that will make the viewfinder larger is a good thing.

Mo, most of Canon's 'affordable' bodies have been 1.6x crop factor.

Adam · 02-23-2007, 07:51 AM

Hmm, I guess it must be some other brand, then.

The larger crop factor doesn't change the image at all, BTW. It only allows for larger sensors...

Adam
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**jfdavis58** · 02-23-2007, 08:18 AM

If you want a 1.3, tell them.

I'd like them to develop and market a full line of lenses and accessories for the pair of K10 that I already purchased.

Lenses, eyepiece enhancements for both eye correction and utility: a Pentax Zigview type device--or maybe a palm type digital assistant; some firmware and software improvements.

Not to put too fine a point on things, but didn't Pentax effectively tell you to stop representing the general masses of users and just do what you do: take fashion photos?

I wonder if you ever considered that a whole lot of us have been Pentax shooters for decades; and that we may have already established lines of communications with the company.

The evidence is right in your hand. Where do you think all the great ideas incorporated in the K10 come from: Johnnie come freebies, like yourself?

**NaClH2O** · 02-23-2007, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by jfdavis58

If you want a 1.3, tell them.

I'd like them to develop and market a full line of lenses and accessories for the pair of K10 that I already purchased.

Lenses, eyepiece enhancements for both eye correction and utility: a Pentax Zigview type device--or maybe a palm type digital assistant; some firmware and software improvements.

Not to put too fine a point on things, but didn't Pentax effectively tell you to stop representing the general masses of users and just do what you do: take fashion photos?

I wonder if you ever considered that a whole lot of us have been Pentax shooters for decades; and that we may have already established lines of communications with the company.

The evidence is right in your hand. Where do you think all the great ideas incorporated in the K10 come from: Johnnie come freebies, like yourself?

John, are you always cranky in the morning? Grab yourself a cuppa and relax man. If Ben has the ear of some Pentax Biggies more power to him. If said Biggies tell him to "shut up and shoot" t'aint my beeswax. Knowing the corporate world as I do, I'm always happy if someone can do an end around the usual low and mid level bushwa where a LOT of good ideas die an unhappy dusty death (some bad ideas too)

NaCl(just my observations)H2O

**NaClH2O** · 02-23-2007, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by benjikan

Just a little survey that I might want to pass on to Pentax...Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor and Why?

What would be the benifits of such a format and would we be willing to spend the extra bucks to do so?

Best Wishes
Ben

Ben, for myself I really don't have any need for a 1.3 crop factor. It wouldn't change much in the way I photograph. I can see for fashion photogs like your self, a wider FOV might be important, but it isn't for me. The only thing I'm concerned about now is the pitiful lens selection currently available. It would be nice to have some lenses ANY LENSES! available.
That is what I would like, not a larger FOV.

NaCl(it seems they are having a hard enough time getting out what they have now)H2O

Alvin · 02-23-2007, 09:07 AM

I don't see much need for a 1.3 crop factor as well. Canon is doing mighty fine with a 1.6x crop CMOS, and the rest of the industry seems alright with 1.5x CCD.

As mentioned by Salty, I think the only benefits of going to a 1.3x crop would be a wider FOV.

IMHO, an overall improvement in image quality coming off our current sensors, as well as more lens availability and selection, should be much more important than any crop factor change and would be money better spent.

*isteve · 02-23-2007, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by benjikan

Just a little survey that I might want to pass on to Pentax...Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor and Why?

What would be the benifits of such a format and would we be willing to spend the extra bucks to do so?

Best Wishes
Ben

1.3 crop is a 20% linear dimension increase over a 1.5 crop. Put another way, with the same pixel pitch as the K10D, it could provide a 14MP sensor but with similar DR and noise, a 12MP sensor with some improvement or a 10MP sensor with possibly better DR and noise. How much is that worth?

Some of the DA lenses already vignette on the 1.5 crop sensor so I would not use them on a 1.3 crop unless they can provide offset microlenses or someting similar to counter it.

There would have to be room to use SR. With no IS lenses, Pentax would need to retain SR to be credible.

So my answer is - if it can use DA lenses, supposrts SR and is otherwise competitive with the 1D mk 3, then yes I would pay around $4000. However being compeitive with a 1D means similar frame rate, AF performance, build quality and features, a useful DR improvement (2 stops) and lower noise (1 stop) with 14bit RAW.

If I need new lenses, lose SR, or there is no improvement in DR or noise or resolution, then forget it.

Denis · 02-23-2007, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by jfdavis58

If you want a 1.3, tell them.

I wonder if you ever considered that a whole lot of us have been Pentax shooters for decades; and that we may have already established lines of communications with the company.

The evidence is right in your hand. Where do you think all the great ideas incorporated in the K10 come from: Johnnie come freebies, like yourself?

To me, the more channels used to pass improvement requests to Pentax, the better and quicker the results will be. Pentax as others companies will react to demand from users and prospective buyers including fashion photographers. We are Pentax users so lets work together and request a better or improved product for the future.

I am not convinced a crop of 1.3x versus 1.5x will be a dramatic change. It may improve noise as the chip would be larger. On the other hand, noise is often generated by the camera so improvements can be achieved via better internal designed as much as increasing size, not perfect but would benefit future more dense chip of equal or large size. A 10% improvement in size may not generate a large interest amongst users in my opinion.

As long as I can effectively use my present lenses on future cameras for a while anyway this change would not cause me grief. If Pentax believes that the market is heading in that direction, we will have to adapt to this market.

ccallana · 02-23-2007, 09:40 AM

Canon's 1D series uses a 1.3x sensor - mainly for their PJ/sports shooters, since its not as high of a pixel count as their 1Ds (full 35mm frame) they can get insane frame rates - the new 1D mk 3 is a 10mp 1.3x sensor shooting 10fps up to 110 jpegs in 1 burst

Unless Pentax wants to go after this market, I think the 1.5x works fine. I would rather see effort put into buffer size/speed instead of a bigger sensor. A K10D with the same 10mp doing 6-8 fps with bursts up to maybe 20 jpegs would be awesome...

That, and like others have said - get some lenses on the street...

regken · 02-23-2007, 09:47 AM

Ben,
I'm convinced there is a 1.3 crop just around the corner for Pentax. If it is priced above $2,000 it's not for me. GPS and front/back focus adjustment will have to be in the firmware. I'd rather see it at 12MP instead of 14 for better ISO performance.

regards,

slip · 02-23-2007, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Mo

Hmm, I guess it must be some other brand, then.

The larger crop factor doesn't change the image at all, BTW. It only allows for larger sensors...

the soon to be released canon EOS 1D mark III has 1.3 crop sensor and 10 fps up to over 100 continuous jpgs.

As far as wanting a 1.3 crop sensor, If I didn't already have the K10 I would definately take a close look at a pentax with 1.3
this could bring the noise levels in with some of the better canon models.
I am not high on Canon, but I have to admit the noise levels of there cameras rock..
staying at 10mp for the lower noise would be fine with me

is sony developing a 1.3 sensor?

cheers

randy

celetron · 02-23-2007, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by benjikan

Just a little survey that I might want to pass on to Pentax...Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor and Why?

What would be the benifits of such a format and would we be willing to spend the extra bucks to do so?

Best Wishes
Ben

I’ve already invested on FF lenses hoping some day to get a FF digital body from pentax. However, if pentax will introduce a body with a 1.3x cropped sensor, I would certainly get that body and additionally I would replace my tamron zoom lenses with the new DA* ones and maybe I would get a few other DAs. That of course if the sensor comes with better DR and noise control (I suppose that would suggest 10MP) and these lenses do not vignette with such a sensor size. Otherwise, I prefer to stick with my Ds and the lenses I've already own... I really cannot see why I should spend more money on lenses or additional bodies while these don’t necessarily come with quite noticeable IQ improvement…

Zubati Kit · 02-23-2007, 10:53 AM

I might consider upgrading, in case that I have enough $$$ and that the camera features are what I am after.

Comparing the two cameras with same features, one 1.3x and the otherAPS-C
I guess I would go for APS-C, as I would appreciate the likely lower weight/cost vs better noise performance, or let say lower MP APS-C vs higher MP 1.3x, APS-C should cost and weigh less which is the inherent advantage, with still having decent sensor performance.

but I am just an ameteur, so this is more a question for some more serious photographers who might find much better use for such sensor.

02-23-2007, 07:03 AM	#1
benjikan Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,308	Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor? Just a little survey that I might want to pass on to Pentax...Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor and Why? What would be the benefits of such a format and would we be willing to spend the extra bucks to do so? Best Wishes Ben Last edited by benjikan; 02-24-2007 at 12:29 PM.

02-23-2007, 07:07 AM	#2
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,608	I think I've figured out why the DA's have this crop factor Since they're "co-developed" with Tokina, and Tokina delivers Nikon and Canon mount lenses, the image circle had to be large enough to cover their sensors. Isn't Canon's crop factor 1.3x? Adam* PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

02-23-2007, 08:18 AM	#5
jfdavis58 Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 13 S 0357397-3884316 Photos: Gallery Posts: 887	What the heck? If you want a 1.3, tell them. I'd like them to develop and market a full line of lenses and accessories for the pair of K10 *that I already purchased. Lenses, eyepiece enhancements for both eye correction and utility: a Pentax Zigview type device--or maybe a palm type digital assistant; some firmware and software improvements. Not to put too fine a point on things, but didn't Pentax effectively tell you to stop representing the general masses of users and just do what you do: take fashion photos? I wonder if you ever considered that a whole lot of us have been Pentax shooters for decades; and that we may have already established lines of communications with the company. The evidence is right in your hand. Where do you think all the great ideas incorporated in the K10 come from: Johnnie come freebies, like yourself?*

02-23-2007, 09:18 AM	#9
*isteve Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 1,187	What for? Originally posted by benjikan Just a little survey that I might want to pass on to Pentax...Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor and Why? What would be the benifits of such a format and would we be willing to spend the extra bucks to do so? Best Wishes Ben 1.3 crop is a 20% linear dimension increase over a 1.5 crop. Put another way, with the same pixel pitch as the K10D, it could provide a 14MP sensor but with similar DR and noise, a 12MP sensor with some improvement or a 10MP sensor with possibly better DR and noise. How much is that worth? Some of the DA lenses already vignette on the 1.5 crop sensor so I would not use them on a 1.3 crop unless they can provide offset microlenses or someting similar to counter it. There would have to be room to use SR. With no IS lenses, Pentax would need to retain SR to be credible. So my answer is - if it can use DA lenses, supposrts SR and is otherwise competitive with the 1D mk 3, then yes I would pay around $4000. However being compeitive with a 1D means similar frame rate, AF performance, build quality and features, a useful DR improvement (2 stops) and lower noise (1 stop) with 14bit RAW. If I need new lenses, lose SR, or there is no improvement in DR or noise or resolution, then forget it.

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02-23-2007, 07:45 AM	#3
wildboar Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 158	I'd pay extra for the 1.3x. That would make my 21mm and 40mm closer to the lenses I used in the film days (28 and 50), and anything that will make the viewfinder larger is a good thing. Mo, most of Canon's 'affordable' bodies have been 1.6x crop factor.

02-23-2007, 07:51 AM	#4
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,608	Hmm, I guess it must be some other brand, then. The larger crop factor doesn't change the image at all, BTW. It only allows for larger sensors... Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

02-23-2007, 08:44 AM	#6
NaClH2O Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bronx NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,631	Originally posted by jfdavis58 If you want a 1.3, tell them. I'd like them to develop and market a full line of lenses and accessories for the pair of K10 *that I already purchased. Lenses, eyepiece enhancements for both eye correction and utility: a Pentax Zigview type device--or maybe a palm type digital assistant; some firmware and software improvements. Not to put too fine a point on things, but didn't Pentax effectively tell you to stop representing the general masses of users and just do what you do: take fashion photos? I wonder if you ever considered that a whole lot of us have been Pentax shooters for decades; and that we may have already established lines of communications with the company. The evidence is right in your hand. Where do you think all the great ideas incorporated in the K10 come from: Johnnie come freebies, like yourself?* John, are you always cranky in the morning? Grab yourself a cuppa and relax man. If Ben has the ear of some Pentax Biggies more power to him. If said Biggies tell him to "shut up and shoot" t'aint my beeswax. Knowing the corporate world as I do, I'm always happy if someone can do an end around the usual low and mid level bushwa where a LOT of good ideas die an unhappy dusty death (some bad ideas too) NaCl(just my observations)H2O

02-23-2007, 08:55 AM	#7
NaClH2O Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bronx NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,631	Originally posted by benjikan Just a little survey that I might want to pass on to Pentax...Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor and Why? What would be the benifits of such a format and would we be willing to spend the extra bucks to do so? Best Wishes Ben Ben, for myself I really don't have any need for a 1.3 crop factor. It wouldn't change much in the way I photograph. I can see for fashion photogs like your self, a wider FOV might be important, but it isn't for me. The only thing I'm concerned about now is the pitiful lens selection currently available. It would be nice to have some lenses ANY LENSES! available. That is what I would like, not a larger FOV. NaCl(it seems they are having a hard enough time getting out what they have now)H2O

02-23-2007, 09:07 AM	#8
Alvin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,517	I don't see much need for a 1.3 crop factor as well. Canon is doing mighty fine with a 1.6x crop CMOS, and the rest of the industry seems alright with 1.5x CCD. As mentioned by Salty, I think the only benefits of going to a 1.3x crop would be a wider FOV. IMHO, an overall improvement in image quality coming off our current sensors, as well as more lens availability and selection, should be much more important than any crop factor change and would be money better spent.

02-23-2007, 09:20 AM	#10
Denis Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: St-Albert, Alberta, Canada Posts: 330	Originally posted by jfdavis58 If you want a 1.3, tell them. I wonder if you ever considered that a whole lot of us have been Pentax shooters for decades; and that we may have already established lines of communications with the company. The evidence is right in your hand. Where do you think all the great ideas incorporated in the K10 come from: Johnnie come freebies, like yourself? To me, the more channels used to pass improvement requests to Pentax, the better and quicker the results will be. Pentax as others companies will react to demand from users and prospective buyers including fashion photographers. We are Pentax users so lets work together and request a better or improved product for the future. I am not convinced a crop of 1.3x versus 1.5x will be a dramatic change. It may improve noise as the chip would be larger. On the other hand, noise is often generated by the camera so improvements can be achieved via better internal designed as much as increasing size, not perfect but would benefit future more dense chip of equal or large size. A 10% improvement in size may not generate a large interest amongst users in my opinion. As long as I can effectively use my present lenses on future cameras for a while anyway this change would not cause me grief. If Pentax believes that the market is heading in that direction, we will have to adapt to this market.

02-23-2007, 09:40 AM	#11
ccallana Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Folsom, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 321	Canon's 1D series uses a 1.3x sensor - mainly for their PJ/sports shooters, since its not as high of a pixel count as their 1Ds (full 35mm frame) they can get insane frame rates - the new 1D mk 3 is a 10mp 1.3x sensor shooting 10fps up to 110 jpegs in 1 burst Unless Pentax wants to go after this market, I think the 1.5x works fine. I would rather see effort put into buffer size/speed instead of a bigger sensor. A K10D with the same 10mp doing 6-8 fps with bursts up to maybe 20 jpegs would be awesome... That, and like others have said - get some lenses on the street...

02-23-2007, 09:47 AM	#12
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Ben, I'm convinced there is a 1.3 crop just around the corner for Pentax. If it is priced above $2,000 it's not for me. GPS and front/back focus adjustment will have to be in the firmware. I'd rather see it at 12MP instead of 14 for better ISO performance. regards,

02-23-2007, 09:47 AM	#13
slip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 2 hours north of toronto ontario canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,535	Originally posted by Mo Hmm, I guess it must be some other brand, then. The larger crop factor doesn't change the image at all, BTW. It only allows for larger sensors... the soon to be released canon EOS 1D mark III has 1.3 crop sensor and 10 fps up to over 100 continuous jpgs. As far as wanting a 1.3 crop sensor, If I didn't already have the K10 I would definately take a close look at a pentax with 1.3 this could bring the noise levels in with some of the better canon models. I am not high on Canon, but I have to admit the noise levels of there cameras rock.. staying at 10mp for the lower noise would be fine with me is sony developing a 1.3 sensor? cheers randy

02-23-2007, 10:07 AM	#14
celetron Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Greece Photos: Albums Posts: 301	Originally posted by benjikan Just a little survey that I might want to pass on to Pentax...Who Wants a 1.3 Cropped Sensor and Why? What would be the benifits of such a format and would we be willing to spend the extra bucks to do so? Best Wishes Ben I’ve already invested on FF lenses hoping some day to get a FF digital body from pentax. However, if pentax will introduce a body with a 1.3x cropped sensor, I would certainly get that body and additionally I would replace my tamron zoom lenses with the new DA* ones and maybe I would get a few other DAs. That of course if the sensor comes with better DR and noise control (I suppose that would suggest 10MP) and these lenses do not vignette with such a sensor size. Otherwise, I prefer to stick with my Ds and the lenses I've already own... I really cannot see why I should spend more money on lenses or additional bodies while these don’t necessarily come with quite noticeable IQ improvement…

02-23-2007, 10:53 AM	#15
Zubati Kit Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 113	I might consider upgrading, in case that I have enough $$$ and that the camera features are what I am after. Comparing the two cameras with same features, one 1.3x and the otherAPS-C I guess I would go for APS-C, as I would appreciate the likely lower weight/cost vs better noise performance, or let say lower MP APS-C vs higher MP 1.3x, APS-C should cost and weigh less which is the inherent advantage, with still having decent sensor performance. but I am just an ameteur, so this is more a question for some more serious photographers who might find much better use for such sensor.