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09-11-2008, 03:26 PM   #46
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I tried a friends Canon 40D with USM lens, and quite frankly, no better than My *istDS, let alone my K10D. Also, did try another friends Nikon D300, and was impressed, although the AF speed was only just better (but boy the 51AF points are a boon, but thats another story).
Fastest AF I tried was the Olympus system, but only 3 AF points, so that is a BIG negative.

Now to look at the cons of Pentax (bear with me here until the end)

Low light AF - Anything but Pentax. However if you are using the flash to aid focus, the Pentax is not bad, if only for still life.

C-AF speed - Nikon here, only the pro stuff (D300/D700/D3), so would be my dream (lottery) choice for this work.

Landscape work - Canon 5D for this, or a Cambo combination (lottery).

Portraits - Hasselblad or Leaf for this kind of work, If I had to be honest

Sports - Again Nikon D3, nothing matches it (not even Canon!)

However, there are some serious positives for Pentax (hence why I love my Pentax Kit)

Build - nothing bar the Canon and Nikon pro gear can match Pentax

Viewfinder brightness - have you tried a Nikon D80? too dim. Again Pentax have the edge in
Prosumer cameras here (even the Pentamirror of the K100/K200 - the *istDS even has the
pentaprism, like the K10D - so bright its a pleasure to use)

Lenses - no other make can match the sheer quality of the Limited Primes, shame the range was not bigger, and that includes the DA* as well.

Colour rendition - Pentax again. Nikon and Canon users are so jealous.

So to sum up, although the Pentax is not the best in most fields, it is an excellent all rounder, unlike other makes, and is a pleasure to use.

Now if the lottery came up, and I could get the D3, Leaf and Cambo, along with upgrading to a K20D, I would be a VERY happy man, as all bases would be covered.


Last edited by offertonhatter; 09-11-2008 at 03:40 PM.
09-11-2008, 04:35 PM   #47
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raz-0: Was not aware that there were many complains about the 540 flash. I would hardly call it "crap" though... As a matter of fact, I have 2 of them, one made in Japan, one made in China purchased later. Have had the first one for quite a while now and I can tell you they are getting their fair share of abuse during weddings, parties, etc. Never one let me down... The only complain I have is the swivel head, it could use a stronger spring, it feels loose at times.

I guess I am just lucky then..

Gene
09-11-2008, 09:36 PM   #48
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I am not a forum kind of guy, I watch, (lurk for info), and I loathe the other famous forum with a passion. Good or bad this thread has inspired me to say something. I joined this forum a over a year ago... I have 12 posts, they were mostly related to selling my Pentax stuff just shortly after I joined. I am a pro with not a lot of fame... as of yet... Let me tell you what I have learned.

After I sold the Pentax, I bought a D200 with an 80-200 and a 35-70 both 2.8 AF D lenses because I was told, and to be truthful, I bought into the age old brand wars. I was seriously disappointed. The auto focus was no faster than my K10 and DA*50-135 in the same conditions. At high ISO there was no difference in noise levels, (I'm not positive but I think the sensors are manufactured by the same company). However, the PRIME processor did a better job at processing the image, the color and tone were much better than the D200.

In my quest for a better image I dumped all my Nikon gear and bought into Canon and some L glass. The high ISO on Canon is really good on the 8.2mp sensors, not so much on the bigger ones but still, the CMOS sensor just has a cleaner look to it. The L glass focuses seriously fast but I don't think it's leaps and bounds faster than the SDM's, they're just quieter... Last week I did a model shoot with a single ring light with a 60 watt model light and a black background and the Canon would not lock on and it doesn't matter who made the camera or that it was fast glass... it wasn't working and I had a pile of missed photo's. I ended up manually focusing for the rest of the shoot.

For those that are complaining about wireless flash... The top end Canon flash is quite a bit more expensive than Pentax and you still don't have wireless capabilities until you drop another $250 on the wireless module that's "sold separately". This is Nikon's only real caveat, wireless flash for everyone at a reasonable price. This really doesn't affect me though, in a flash situation I have learned to shoot in manual and trigger any flash unit I want with after market triggers. I have an ancient Vivitar 285 that's fully adjustable and will compete with the sun for brightness that cost me $15. I spent the money that I saved from not buying two $400 flash units and bought the triggers. Learning how to do this was probably my biggest leap in image quality... no matter the manufacturer.

D3... 1D MarkIII... Blazing fast, you bet, but why? I can't use the 5fps I got now in the situations I am using it in, my camera is set to single shot. If Sports Illustrated calls me tomorrow with plane tickets and a healthy advance to shoot the Cowboys game... OK, maybe... But for you-n-me, for that price, not necessary. 1Ds MarkIII with 21mp, again, if an ad agency calls me tomorrow with a healthy advance to shoot the close ups for Campbell foods for the worldwide ad campaign, yeah maybe... There are serious pros in this forum making a reasonable and in some cases a great income but the folks who actually need or require 21mp and/or 11fps are very far and very few between. This is the marketing machine at it's very best.

I was a nationally ranked sport/competition kite flier for a time and my kites were hand made by a very wise man in France. (The same comparison and minutia bantering happens with kites as well.) And this was his advice to me and it has just recently sunk in and really meant something. In his best broken English, "All kites do same thing, some do some things better but don't do other things well, but they all do one thing same, they fly! Pick one you like that fits you, make do whatever you want, love it and make it yours".

All cameras do the same thing, pick one you like, one that fits, one that makes you go wow, adapt yourself to what it can and cant do, exploit both, love it and make it yours. Nobody defines your style and the way you shoot, who cares if the guy next to you has a white lens with a red stripe. A green or gold stripe is just as, if not, cooler. I challenge you to pick any photo from anywhere you want and tell me definitively what manufacturer shot it and how many fps it was shot at. You can't because it has nothing to do with the badge and everything to do with your eye and your style, end of story.

As for me... I am lusting for that 14.6mp CMOS sensor on that comfortable K body that fits so well in my hands ...and the green trim, oh man... I miss my Pentax. Anybody want to buy my Canon gear?

Scot

P.S. Sorry, the K10 banner is still on my signature. Hope you'll forgive me.
09-12-2008, 04:43 AM   #49
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Hey, scotfree photo.

I agree with you 100%. I do some sport photography with my Pentaxes, and rarely have to complain about autofocus. And I rarely use continuous shouting. Even at 3fps, it fills up a card in a hurry and there is no guarantee you'll have THE picture you want. Given all that, I won't make your mistake and go for Nikon or Canon. My Pentaxes do just about everything I need out of a camera.

09-12-2008, 07:07 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by scotfree_photo Quote
After I sold the Pentax, I bought a D200 with an 80-200 and a 35-70 both 2.8 AF D lenses because I was told, and to be truthful, I bought into the age old brand wars. I was seriously disappointed. The auto focus was no faster than my K10 and DA*50-135 in the same conditions. At high ISO there was no difference in noise levels, (I'm not positive but I think the sensors are manufactured by the same company). However, the PRIME processor did a better job at processing the image, the color and tone were much better than the D200.
That sounds about right. But I would not expect a D200 to be significantly better than a K10D in any department. These are pretty comparable cameras, just as the newer D300 is pretty comparable to the newer K20D.


QuoteQuote:
"All kites do same thing, some do some things better but don't do other things well, but they all do one thing same, they fly! Pick one you like that fits you, make do whatever you want, love it and make it yours".

All cameras do the same thing, pick one you like, one that fits, one that makes you go wow, adapt yourself to what it can and cant do, exploit both, love it and make it yours.
Scot, this is true. But as I understood it, this thread wasn't about comparing brands with each other in the usual pointless way, abut about the particular problems that one faces after having bought Pentax. I think that's a reasonable line of inquiry. I certainly assume (and I assume the OP assumed as well) that all systems have problems. Since you can take great photos with almost any system, it's worth knowing what sort of problems you should expect. I don't think this is a Pentax-bashing thread. It's just a "let's be honest about the warts" thread. I think that's valuable.

I certainly wish that I had been more aware of the problems with the Pentax 540 FGZ flash unit before I bought a couple of them. I could have saved myself some time, trouble and money by going right for the Metz or Sigma alternatives. I'm aware that the Metz costs more than the 540. But I now have two 540's that I have spent a lot of money on and which I don't really want. Would have been cheaper to go with something better in the first place even if it cost a bit more.

Will
09-12-2008, 09:33 AM   #51
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Pentax Cons:

- Focusing at EV6 and below. According to Pop Photo, the Sony A200 has good focusing at EV6 and not that sudden drop in AF speed that Pentax has as soon as it hits EV6.

- Double check AF. Probably the "biggest" con

- Instruction manual for 540 FGZ.

- Sony is doing a LOT of the things that Pentax should be doing.
09-12-2008, 10:40 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by scotfree_photo Quote
Snip..
After I sold the Pentax, I bought a D200 with an 80-200 and a 35-70 both 2.8 AF D lenses because I was told, and to be truthful, I bought into the age old brand wars. I was seriously disappointed. The auto focus was no faster than my K10 and DA*50-135 in the same conditions. At high ISO there was no difference in noise levels, (I'm not positive but I think the sensors are manufactured by the same company). However, the PRIME processor did a better job at processing the image, the color and tone were much better than the D200.

All cameras do the same thing, pick one you like, one that fits, one that makes you go wow, adapt yourself to what it can and cant do, exploit both, love it and make it yours. Nobody defines your style and the way you shoot, who cares if the guy next to you has a white lens with a red stripe. A green or gold stripe is just as, if not, cooler. I challenge you to pick any photo from anywhere you want and tell me definitively what manufacturer shot it and how many fps it was shot at. You can't because it has nothing to do with the badge and everything to do with your eye and your style, end of story.

As for me... I am lusting for that 14.6mp CMOS sensor on that comfortable K body that fits so well in my hands ...and the green trim, oh man... I miss my Pentax. Anybody want to buy my Canon gear?

Scot

P.S. Sorry, the K10 banner is still on my signature. Hope you'll forgive me.
Scot, thanks for sharing your view.
I often compare my friend's D200 in terms of picture quality (other than higher ISO), I don't find the D200 produces any better images than the ones from my K10D and in most cases my pictures are better -btw, same sensor different engine (I use my 31mm ltd, he uses the 18-200VR). Keeping in mind that I paid 680 for my K10D as compare to his D200 around 1400.

I also agree with you that using cameras regardless of brands at similar level should be able to give good results if one knows what to do with it or know how to work around the weakness or deficiency.

QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
snip...

I agree with you 100%. I do some sport photography with my Pentaxes, and rarely have to complain about autofocus. And I rarely use continuous shouting. Even at 3fps, it fills up a card in a hurry and there is no guarantee you'll have THE picture you want. Given all that, I won't make your mistake and go for Nikon or Canon. My Pentaxes do just about everything I need out of a camera.
Agree with you flyer, I rarely use continuous shooting for faster fps and I don't find AF to be a problem in low light situation; Since the K10D has provided almost all the features I want or need, unless the K20D price point becomes attractive again I won't be upgrading for a while. So, no cons from me on my K10D at this moment.

QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
snip...
I certainly wish that I had been more aware of the problems with the Pentax 540 FGZ flash unit before I bought a couple of them. I could have saved myself some time, trouble and money by going right for the Metz or Sigma alternatives. I'm aware that the Metz costs more than the 540. But I now have two 540's that I have spent a lot of money on and which I don't really want. Would have been cheaper to go with something better in the first place even if it cost a bit more.

Will
Hi, Will, I am not finding any problem with 540 PTTL mode - although I must say I use TAv almost exclusively when I am using flash. Maybe I have not discovered any bad things about this flash. Would you care to elaborate? Thanks.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marcus Quote
Pentax Cons:

- Focusing at EV6 and below. According to Pop Photo, the Sony A200 has good focusing at EV6 and not that sudden drop in AF speed that Pentax has as soon as it hits EV6.

- Double check AF. Probably the "biggest" con

- Instruction manual for 540 FGZ.

- Sony is doing a LOT of the things that Pentax should be doing.
Marcus, I hear a lot about AF problem, but I don't know (since I have nothing to compare); with my 31mm ltd. I don't really get to see the problem.

I also agree with you that the instruction manual for 540FGZ sucks bigtime - definitely have lots of room for improvement.

I have another friend who has the sony A700, it seems to be pretty good, are you referring to AF or something else? Thanks,
09-12-2008, 11:37 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
Hi, Will, I am not finding any problem with 540 PTTL mode - although I must say I use TAv almost exclusively when I am using flash. Maybe I have not discovered any bad things about this flash. Would you care to elaborate? Thanks.
Well, when I mentioned problems with the 540 FGZ in this thread (in the post you were responding to) I was thinking mainly of the unit's poor quality as a piece of hardware. I'm by no means alone in having these units break on me repeatedly, and without even being worked especially hard. This is my main complaint, but it's a really big issue. I own two of these units, they've both broken on me, one has broken in more than one way. My conclusion is that they simply are not well made.

But with respect to P-TTL, there are many threads here and elsewhere about its problems. There seem to be two problems.

The main one that bothers me is that the pre-flash causes a significant percentage of my subjects to be captured with their eyes closed or half-closed. Although it doesn't happen all the time, it happens often enough to be a definite problem. One bride I shot last spring was a fast blinker and with her it was really a serious problem.

The other problem is that P-TTL seems to make for exposure problems. I have to say that, while I have experienced this occasionally, I am generally fairly successful in getting a decent exposure with the 540. But from my conversations with Nikon shooters especially, my impressionis that the i-TTL system is generally a better system.

Will

09-12-2008, 01:36 PM   #54
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Scot: Totally with you! Here is an excerpt from another post of mine on this whole issue, in this case the original post was in regards to my appreciation of Live View:

".... I am relatively new to this forum (as my low number of posts can attest) and honestly, I am not a big fan of them. I like browsing around to find information that could be helpful to me, but one thing I quickly noticed is the over-use of the word "crap" by many posters when describing some of their gear and their qualities/flaws... I made a choice 30 years ago (yeah, I'm an old fart...) to go with Pentax gear and never looked back. Got everything from the venerable Spotmatic to K1000 to ME to LX to MX to PZ1p to *istD and now K10/20D. I've shot everything from weddings, sports, indoor, outdoor, on the sea, in the desert, in the jungle, parties (some really bad ones too...), during riots, civil wars, landscapes, portraits, some formal, some much less formal, etc...

The point I am trying to make is that, yes, the Pentax system has it's flaws, many questionable decisions (both technical and commercial) made by the company in the last 15 years or so. I HAVE LEARNED TO LIVE WITH AND ADAPT TO THESE FLAWS! I would have to do THE EXACT SAME THING if I were using another brand!

Everytime Pentax came with a new model that had some new features that could be of interest to me, well... Example: some people in these forums call the 540 flashgun "crap"... To me, it's another blessing with it's wireless control capabilities and power..."

In all these years and will all this gear, I've had very few hardware related failures. Actually, most were mis-handling of my equipment or downright stupidity on my part... The worse one was a seized motor on my ME winder... Oh, yeah, and a locked iris on an old manual lens, can't even remember which one... No bad, considering...

Gene
09-12-2008, 02:04 PM   #55
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Will, thanks for response regarding your experience with the 540 FGZ flash. I agree with you that the quality of 540 FGZ (may be the design itself) is underwhelming -flimsy easy to break and clunky. Perhaps, Pentax should come out with a new flash model by now to replace the aging fleet. I felt that the 360 FGZ flash was quite nice and compact, and the battery door seem more solid. Unfortunately, I need the tilt and swivel option when I am using a single flash system - otherwise, I like the 360 FGZ.

Also, I tend to use bounce flash a lot (seldom direct flash), therefore, I am not experiencing any over exposured scenario using flash whereas my friends using other systems have bad over-exposured foreground all the time. I don't know if it is because of P-TTL or because I use TAv to balance the flash power output and ambient light. I can adjust the flash power output or in some cases, I use EV compensation (not available in M mode) and the outcome seems to be spot on all the time. Whatever the reason is, I am happy with the result.

Thanks, again,
Alfred
09-12-2008, 04:19 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
Marcus, I hear a lot about AF problem, but I don't know (since I have nothing to compare); with my 31mm ltd. I don't really get to see the problem.

I also agree with you that the instruction manual for 540FGZ sucks bigtime - definitely have lots of room for improvement.
As for the 540 FGZ manual, I could never figure out how to do wireless flash or how to even follow the instructions for it. I just scratched that idea and sprung for the 5FP hotshoe adapterwith a 9.5 foot extension cord. You can link 2 of them together if you want more cord length. The combination works great and it's a surprisingly good build for a cord. I don't see many Pentaxians with the 5FP gig but as an owner, I can say that I am pleased. Good stuff.

Another thing about the 540 FGZ. Has anyone experienced the ring that you turn to lock it on the hotshoe just getting loose? When I first purchased the thing, the thing was WAY tighter than it is now. I have to turn it so far that I try to be very careful that I don't break the thing off somehow. It's never really as tight as it could be.

QuoteQuote:
I have another friend who has the sony A700, it seems to be pretty good, are you referring to AF or something else? Thanks,
I was referring Sony DSLRs as a whole. Many say that they'd never shoot with a Sony, "it's trash blah, blah, blah, the RAW, etc " but Sony is really doing nothing wrong for how long they've been in the DSLR game. Hate to say it, but Sony is the best alternative to Pentax. It's turning into a pretty solid system really quick. Faster than that 60-250 will ever come. Speaking of it:

Another Pentax Con:

The 60-250


You're more likely to see Bigfoot using a 645D before we'll see that thing.
09-12-2008, 07:01 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by offertonhatter Quote

Portraits - Hasselblad or Leaf for this kind of work, If I had to be honest
Fuji S5. Saves you about $22,000.
09-12-2008, 07:13 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by scotfree_photo Quote
The auto focus was no faster than my K10 and DA*50-135 in the same conditions.
This is EXACTLY the same experience I had when shooting Nikon (all models below the D200—so I am speaking prosumer mid to low). The AF speed between the brands is negligible. I have found that most of those making the comparisons do not shoot other brands; or blame faulty technique on equipment.

You go to a Nikon forum and you hear the same thing about AF speed and low-light locking. Then someone talks about another brand being better. It goes on and on until the wise reader starts to understand that it's a subjective thing and not objective enough to be a trusm, not backed up by any factual data.

So you turn to the reviews with their thousands of test shots in pro hands, and frankly, none of them have a problem with the Pentax AF at the K10/20020D price points. It's a non-issue.
09-25-2008, 06:30 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Well, when I mentioned problems with the 540 FGZ in this thread (in the post you were responding to) I was thinking mainly of the unit's poor quality as a piece of hardware. I'm by no means alone in having these units break on me repeatedly, and without even being worked especially hard. This is my main complaint, but it's a really big issue. I own two of these units, they've both broken on me, one has broken in more than one way. My conclusion is that they simply are not well made.

But with respect to P-TTL, there are many threads here and elsewhere about its problems. There seem to be two problems.

The main one that bothers me is that the pre-flash causes a significant percentage of my subjects to be captured with their eyes closed or half-closed. Although it doesn't happen all the time, it happens often enough to be a definite problem. One bride I shot last spring was a fast blinker and with her it was really a serious problem.

The other problem is that P-TTL seems to make for exposure problems. I have to say that, while I have experienced this occasionally, I am generally fairly successful in getting a decent exposure with the 540. But from my conversations with Nikon shooters especially, my impressionis that the i-TTL system is generally a better system.

Will

I agree with your comment about the pre-flash - it has been a continual source of annoyance to me. Not only in causing subjects to blink, it causes animals and birds to flinch. And it triggers my slave flash prematurely, so I get no useful flash on those shots. I've gone to all sorts of trouble to convince Pentax to modify their firmware in the K10D, but they have no interest in doing so. Their marketing is focused on newer and newer models, take it or leave it. Otherwise, I'm very happy with the K10D. Just hate that damned pre-flash that cannot be cut off.

Olin
09-25-2008, 08:19 PM   #60
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Having read this entire thread I feel I need to add a little.

BTW, I'm coming in as a Pentax newbie (I've had Canon SLR film kit for almost 30 years and Canon P&S for 5), but I'd like to make (and echo) a few points anyway:
  • The images we generate are only as good as the creator of the images. How many of us have images we'd rather not show? If you can't compose a good image then its not the cameras fault.
  • To get the most out of any equipment you have to know and understand it - I knew my old film gear intimately and could produce high quality images.
    My daughter has recently been using my old film SLR for Uni studies, and whilst she can compose an image with reasonable competence, she doesn't understand the mechanics such as EV, aperture, shutter speed and follow focus well enough to get the idea in her head onto the film consistently. That takes practice and it will come to her in the end.
  • Once you know the limitations of your equipment you can push it that much further. And every piece of equipment has limitations.
    I teach a national course here in Oz on how to use some medical equipment. The number of attendees that have no idea about the hardware or the physical principles is astounding. So when things go wrong they can't go back to the principles to find out why.
    The same concept applies to photographic equipment.
  • You don't have to use AF all the time - its just a tool. If you can see that its not in focus, then tweak it if you've got the time. Low light contrast/light is always going to play havoc with it.
  • Same goes for that LiveView option on some dSLRs - its a pretty bit of glitz that is not really needed if you've got a proper view finder and know how to compose an image. I can compose in the viewfinder, focus and get images that are close to what I envisaged without the extra help
  • I bought the K200D based on bang for buck and flexibility having compared the offering from the others for almost a year.
    The K200D was more solid, had more controls, had a stack of old glass as well as some reasonable new glass, was closer to a semi-pro dSLR than the other offerings in my price range, and had the K10D pedigree underneath it all.
    And Yes - price has to come into it as has been mentioned by the professionals in this thread.
    I also liked the mass of the thing - not some lightweight toy size object in my hand.

So rather than looking for Cons we should be looking to get photographers to understand their equipment to get the best possible image. Thats what I thought this forum was about....

Thats my two bits worth
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