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01-19-2021, 02:13 PM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
If we remove the subjective things.
„better“ refers to quality.
Quality is defined as fulfilling requirements at a certain price level.
Requirements allways are 100% subjectively selected and prioritised.

Any objectively existing extra feature a product might have, say it is the only product you can order in pink color, is meaningless until one human subjectively includes it into her list of requirements and at a certain subjective priority.

So yes, absolutely any aspect of a product per se has the same relevancy and weight as any other one.
And they *all* are subjective when we discuss qualities or „better“ or „best“.

Even cars sell a *lot* on emotions and ridiculously subjective aspects of cosmetics mainly. And cars are at least as much „tools“ as some call their cameras. And they are more technically advanced, expensive and complex.

You as a single voice may state that for you EVF vs OVF is not important but FPS is.
I can say that good button layout is more important than FPS.

We both are right. Each one for himself. All 100% subjective.

Forums are full of discussions with people claiming to hold the objective truth and objectively best blabla, while that never ever is the case. It is opinion. Even if you can measure something it can be completely irrelevant to the other people.

I alone define what is best - for me. You alone define what is best - for you.

01-19-2021, 02:14 PM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Nope. Brand new, but total of $1093.

Both from B&H at todays' price.
OK,you saved me checking.Thats where I usually look.

its not cheap, by any means.
01-19-2021, 02:17 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Nope. Brand new, but total of $1093.

Both from B&H at todays' price.
Similar kit from mirrorless can be found for similar price. B&H today's price.

Nikon Z 50 Mirrorless Digital Camera with 16-50mm and 50-250mm
01-19-2021, 02:21 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Similar kit from mirrorless can be found for similar price. B&H today's price.

Nikon Z 50 Mirrorless Digital Camera with 16-50mm and 50-250mm
Yes it is, which is why I used the phrase "potentially a lot cheaper", especially if you're good with high quality used glass or gently used bodies. Those inexpensive pieces of gear are out there.

I strongly suspect a photographer with a $1200 budget could put together a capable well-featured DSLR with better AF glass than he could going with an MILC. Whether the DSLR or mirrorless would meet the wants of that shooter better is subjective. Are we now on the same page?


Last edited by gatorguy; 01-19-2021 at 02:29 PM.
01-19-2021, 02:28 PM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
„better“ refers to quality.
Quality is defined as fulfilling requirements at a certain price level.
Requirements allways are 100% subjectively selected and prioritised.

Any objectively existing extra feature a product might have, say it is the only product you can order in pink color, is meaningless until one human subjectively includes it into her list of requirements and at a certain subjective priority.

So yes, absolutely any aspect of a product per se has the same relevancy and weight as any other one.
And they *all* are subjective when we discuss qualities or „better“ or „best“.

Even cars sell a *lot* on emotions and ridiculously subjective aspects of cosmetics mainly. And cars are at least as much „tools“ as some call their cameras. And they are more technically advanced, expensive and complex.

You as a single voice may state that for you EVF vs OVF is not important but FPS is.
I can say that good button layout is more important than FPS.

We both are right. Each one for himself. All 100% subjective.

Forums are full of discussions with people claiming to hold the objective truth and objectively best blabla, while that never ever is the case. It is opinion. Even if you can measure something it can be completely irrelevant to the other people.

I alone define what is best - for me. You alone define what is best - for you.
I think I can't make myself understandable. A face to face discussion with a mirrorless and a DSLR on the table would have had much more sense...
01-19-2021, 02:46 PM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
A LOT less expensive.
Oh......

---------- Post added 01-20-21 at 08:47 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
why I used the phrase "potentially a lot cheaper",
.................
01-19-2021, 02:49 PM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Yes it is, which is why I used the phrase "potentially a lot cheaper", especially if you're good with high quality used glass or gently used bodies. Those inexpensive pieces of gear are out there.

I strongly suspect a photographer with a $1200 budget could put together a capable well-featured DSLR with better AF glass than he could going with an MILC. Whether the DSLR or mirrorless would meet the wants of that shooter better is subjective. Are we now on the same page?
I can't speak as a general rule about cameras I haven't tried and since I don't know about which gear you're talking about in that budget... Af glass it's so different from photographer to photographer... Also, I don't know what we have to photograph with the 1200$ camera gear. I know a lot about landscape photography for example because I go out with Pro landscape photographers. But it's only theory because I don't like to shoot landscapes so I don't have practical experience in order to discuss about landscapes with photographers who shoot this stuff. I also don't shoot candid street images and again, I can comment on such a topic.

I can talk about cameras and lenses I used in areas such: portraits, beauty, corporate events, wildlife and action, corporate and business portraits.

Feature for feature, the new generation of mirrorless cameras seems to get me more consistent results than DSLRs in above categories. And I use the gear quite a lot before commenting on threads because I always love user experience over influencers reviews. I would never talk about gear I barely put my hands on because despite I'm familiar with "love at first sight", I'm also familiar with love after not a great start.

01-19-2021, 02:55 PM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Are we now on the same page?
Not sure which one you are on?

The subject(which has gone right away from the thread title) is about the youngish smart phone user getting a real camera.

That user has been shooting phone photos, but you would recommend a completely different way of shooting?

IF logic prevails, an ideal recommendation is a similar way of shooting but achieving much better images(still and moving).
01-19-2021, 02:57 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I can't speak as a general rule about cameras I haven't tried and since I don't know about which gear you're talking about in that budget... Af glass it's so different from photographer to photographer... Also, I don't know what we have to photograph with the 1200$ camera gear. I know a lot about landscape photography for example because I go out with Pro landscape photographers. But it's only theory because I don't like to shoot landscapes so I don't have practical experience in order to discuss about landscapes with photographers who shoot this stuff. I also don't shoot candid street images and again, I can comment on such a topic.

I can talk about cameras and lenses I used in areas such: portraits, beauty, corporate events, wildlife and action, corporate and business portraits.
OK, so if I had a chance to grab a Canon EOS 5D Mark IV for $1200-1300 (they seem to be abundant and some with low-ish shutter counts) with a budget of another $1200 for glass appropriate for a couple weddings and some portrait shoots, what mirrorless would you recommend instead as a better camera choice for the same money. That's something you have experience with.
01-19-2021, 03:12 PM - 1 Like   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Not sure which one you are on?

The subject(which has gone right away from the thread title) is about the youngish smart phone user getting a real camera.

That user has been shooting phone photos, but you would recommend a completely different way of shooting?

IF logic prevails, an ideal recommendation is a similar way of shooting but achieving much better images(still and moving).
Respectfully, I disagree. Their phone has no viewfinder... just a big display. You can give them a mirrorless camera or DSLR in Live View mode and both will be, to some similar degree, an extension of what they previously used... still, both will be very different too. A smartphone with a camera is basically a general-use computer system with voice calling and camera integration. A "real" camera is typically a closed system, dedicated to the process of capturing photos and little else.

Rather than recommending one type of camera or another and projecting our own subjective biases onto the prospective user, we'd do better by giving them all the relevant information and letting them decide for themselves. Explain to them the range of different options - from large sensor compacts with and without EVFs, to serious mirrorless and DSLR systems - and explain what each offers, why some folks like some features better than others, and how it's largely subjective. Let them try different cameras if you have them or can arrange access. My guess is that, without some experience of shooting with each type of camera, most will probably pick mirrorless over DSLR... but there will be some for whom the penny drops when they view and compose through an optical viewfinder...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-19-2021 at 03:47 PM.
01-19-2021, 03:21 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
OK, so if I had a chance to grab a Canon EOS 5D Mark IV for $1200-1300 (they seem to be abundant and some with low-ish shutter counts) with a budget of another $1200 for glass appropriate for a couple weddings and some portrait shoots, what mirrorless would you recommend instead as a better camera choice for the same money. That's something you have experience with.
As long as I sold 5D Mark IV for EOS R after shooting with both of them side by side for a few weeks before buying EOS R and also for a few months after, I can tell you that EOS R gave me more consistent results at corporate events. I shoot without flash most of the time and at fast apertures it was a lot easier to nail focus and deal with challenging lights that required overexposing or underexposing my images because of the EVF which allowed me to adjust on the fly my settings. Also, Sony A7 III after their big af update gave me more consistent results than 5D Mark IV, but with a little more work in post production (mostly because I love Canon colors and Sony is more magenta like).
01-19-2021, 03:27 PM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
As long as I sold 5D Mark IV for EOS R after shooting with both of them side by side for a few weeks before buying EOS R and also for a few months after, I can tell you that EOS R gave me more consistent results at corporate events. I shoot without flash most of the time and at fast apertures it was a lot easier to nail focus and deal with challenging lights that required overexposing or underexposing my images because of the EVF which allowed me to adjust on the fly my settings. Also, Sony A7 III after their big af update gave me more consistent results than 5D Mark IV, but with a little more work in post production (mostly because I love Canon colors and Sony is more magenta like).
So for the intended purpose and budget the EOS R is the better choice over the 5D? thanks for the advice. And which two lenses, preferably something short and an 85 I think. I had already scoped out those two for the 5D, but perhaps buying the additional adapter for the older Canon lens mount is the better idea?

Last edited by gatorguy; 01-19-2021 at 03:41 PM.
01-19-2021, 03:45 PM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Respectfully, I disagree.
Re$pectfully,I disagree with your re$pectful disagreement!!

Your way of looking at the scenario is technically astute from a technically advanced photographer.However,put your "smartphone only" hat on please!

The guy "probably" has a high end smartphone which is capable of good "point and shoot"style still and moving pictures.He probably has social media accounts and uses them regularly.

To start him off with a designated camera,I think its imperative NOT to confuse him with TOO much information. That can be saved for his progression(if it happens) to a higher level.

Last edited by surfar; 01-19-2021 at 04:05 PM.
01-19-2021, 03:53 PM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Not sure which one you are on?

The subject(which has gone right away from the thread title) is about the youngish smart phone user getting a real camera.

That user has been shooting phone photos, but you would recommend a completely different way of shooting?
.
I did? I thought I suggested a Fuji APS-C might be appropriate to the person moving over from a smartphone assuming it meets their budget. A rangefinder style with a touchscreen is sorta an extension of one. So is that the "different direction" you're talking about?
01-19-2021, 03:55 PM   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
So for the intended purpose and budget the EOS R is the better choice over the 5D? thanks for the advice. And which two lenses, preferably something short and an 85 I think. I had already scoped out those two for the 5D, but perhaps buying the additional adapter for the older Canaon lens mount is the better idea?
Heres another scenario.Scott is a designated wedding pro and uses the basic Canon FF M/L.Its a risk imo though.Twin cards are a mandatory for such an important event.



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