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06-27-2018, 06:57 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by SSGGeezer Quote
Bingo!
QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
Bingo!
Bingo!

06-27-2018, 07:04 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by bertwert Quote
Originally posted by SSGGeezer
Bingo!
Originally posted by FozzFoster
Bingo!
Bingo!
Bingo!

---------- Post added 06-27-18 at 08:05 PM ----------

Ahhk I did it wrong
06-27-2018, 07:20 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kozlok Quote
You are insisting that your limits are the same as someone else’s. I care not very much about the cost, but I do insist on an OVF, and I want a minimum weight for a given IQ for the specific kind of shooting I do. I also want SR and focus confirmation with manual lenses. My keeper rate with Pentax is pretty high, but I shoot slowly, and none of the other cameras meet my needs. If I shot fashion in a fast-paced environment, I’d care about keeper rate above all other factors; cost would be nearly irrelevant.

To insist on same-value is also a false equivalence for someone in different circumstances.
No, the idea of same-value is that you cannot compare, for example, Nikon D500 to Pentax K-30. When comparing brands, you need to compare top-of-the-line to top-of-the-line and bottom-of-the-line to bottom-of-the-line ... if such a thing exists.

When comparing for personal use, that is when you make a list of eligible cameras, and work from there.
06-27-2018, 11:28 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kozlok Quote
You are insisting that your limits are the same as someone else’s. I care not very much about the cost, but I do insist on an OVF, and I want a minimum weight for a given IQ for the specific kind of shooting I do. I also want SR and focus confirmation with manual lenses. My keeper rate with Pentax is pretty high, but I shoot slowly, and none of the other cameras meet my needs. If I shot fashion in a fast-paced environment, I’d care about keeper rate above all other factors; cost would be nearly irrelevant.

To insist on same-value is also a false equivalence for someone in different circumstances.
That echoes my thought with respect to the OP’s. I can’t speak for others, nor do I want to do so, but stating that another system has a feature absent in Pentax isn’t intended to be hostile, but a mere statement of fact. Whether it is better or worse isn’t really an objective judgment scenario since application is critical for determining need. I’ve had great experience with my Pentax gear, and it offers great value for money. But there are certainly gaps in its feature set and performance that are met by others. If it’s not what I want, why would I be bothered by what someone else likes?

06-28-2018, 01:57 AM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
No, the idea of same-value is that you cannot compare, for example, Nikon D500 to Pentax K-30. When comparing brands, you need to compare top-of-the-line to top-of-the-line and bottom-of-the-line to bottom-of-the-line ... if such a thing exists.

When comparing for personal use, that is when you make a list of eligible cameras, and work from there.
...and same-generation as well (unless price difference is significant).
06-28-2018, 06:03 AM - 1 Like   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by neokind Quote
That echoes my thought with respect to the OP’s. I can’t speak for others, nor do I want to do so, but stating that another system has a feature absent in Pentax isn’t intended to be hostile, but a mere statement of fact. Whether it is better or worse isn’t really an objective judgment scenario since application is critical for determining need. I’ve had great experience with my Pentax gear, and it offers great value for money. But there are certainly gaps in its feature set and performance that are met by others. If it’s not what I want, why would I be bothered by what someone else likes?
See, here is where we differ. If i want information, I ask for it.
Not to mention that offering information without a request is arrogance in the extreme. The person seems to think they have something relevant to say. Like the guy who offered that I couldn't comment on how bad Pentax AF was, the day after I tried out a Nikon D810 in the store. Ot the guy who told me how good EVF was right after I'd tried 3 different EVF systems, and found they made me dizzy. There is every possibility others know more than the person offering the information.

There's a line between offering information when asked and bragging about your equipment, when no one asked.

And I fail to see how even if you are asked, excluding price information is in any way useful,

There are very few of us here on the forum, who are "performance at any cost" buyers. We are more likely to be describe as "value for dollars spent" buyers. Given the company's recent history, they wouldn't be Pentax shooters if they weren't/

So in what way does unsolicited comparison between my gear and someone else's high end gear do anyone any good?
This is particularly annoying when people buy different gear for issues they have that you don't have a problem with. I read a lot of these posts about problems people are having with their gear and some of it is camera related, but some of it is just ignorance on display. Especially stuff like they went from a 30% keeper rate and now they have a 90% keeper rate, when you've never had less than a 70% keeper rate even using AF.c tracking. Sometimes you just feel like saying "you need to learn how to use your gear more than you need new camera." and the reason I don't need the camera you bought is because my technique is good enough to get a 70%-100% keeper rate with what i have."

I think most Pentax users enjoy the challenge of getting more from less, would rather improve their technique than spend money on equipment that reduces the need for technique and don't get sucked in by marketing stuff.

There was this kid in HS who was always telling everyone what he just bought, how expensive it was and he'd then ask if we wanted to come back to his place and see it. We all hated that kid.

Same deal.

Last edited by normhead; 06-28-2018 at 06:11 AM.
06-28-2018, 06:18 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kozlok Quote
You are insisting that your limits are the same as someone else’s. I care not very much about the cost, but I do insist on an OVF, and I want a minimum weight for a given IQ for the specific kind of shooting I do. I also want SR and focus confirmation with manual lenses. My keeper rate with Pentax is pretty high, but I shoot slowly, and none of the other cameras meet my needs. If I shot fashion in a fast-paced environment, I’d care about keeper rate above all other factors; cost would be nearly irrelevant.

To insist on same-value is also a false equivalence for someone in different circumstances.
I just think that Norm is right that comparisons of gear need to depend on similar price points. Comparing a D5600 to an A9 or even an A7 III is possible, but the question is more why would you do such a comparison? Better to compare, say, the A7 III to the D750 and the A9 to the D5. If you have that type of money to spend, why would you limit yourself with Nikon, but not with Sony?

These things work both ways of course and it is pretty frequent that folks show up saying how cheap 'x' brand system is and it turns out that they bought all used and third party gear. You can do that with Pentax too, although the market is smaller, but it certainly makes it difficult to make a real comparison

At the same time, Pentax doesn't make a full frame sport camera with really frame rates and if you want that, then you need to go elsewhere.

06-28-2018, 07:13 AM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
See, here is where we differ. If i want information, I ask for it.
Not to mention that offering information without a request is arrogance in the extreme. The person seems to think they have something relevant to say. Like the guy who offered that I couldn't comment on how bad Pentax AF was, the day after I tried out a Nikon D810 in the store. Ot the guy who told me how good EVF was right after I'd tried 3 different EVF systems, and found they made me dizzy. There is every possibility others know more than the person offering the information.

There's a line between offering information when asked and bragging about your equipment, when no one asked.

And I fail to see how even if you are asked, excluding price information is in any way useful,

There are very few of us here on the forum, who are "performance at any cost" buyers. We are more likely to be describe as "value for dollars spent" buyers. Given the company's recent history, they wouldn't be Pentax shooters if they weren't/

So in what way does unsolicited comparison between my gear and someone else's high end gear do anyone any good?
This is particularly annoying when people buy different gear for issues they have that you don't have a problem with. I read a lot of these posts about problems people are having with their gear and some of it is camera related, but some of it is just ignorance on display. Especially stuff like they went from a 30% keeper rate and now they have a 90% keeper rate, when you've never had less than a 70% keeper rate even using AF.c tracking. Sometimes you just feel like saying "you need to learn how to use your gear more than you need new camera." and the reason I don't need the camera you bought is because my technique is good enough to get a 70%-100% keeper rate with what i have."

I think most Pentax users enjoy the challenge of getting more from less, would rather improve their technique than spend money on equipment that reduces the need for technique and don't get sucked in by marketing stuff.

There was this kid in HS who was always telling everyone what he just bought, how expensive it was and he'd then ask if we wanted to come back to his place and see it. We all hated that kid.

Same deal.
That's cool. I totally agree that the spirit of the comment/comparison is important. And unsolicited comparisons, especially where the price points are totally different, makes no sense at all. No one here is really recommending a K1ii to someone looking to update from a K100 unless it's clear that person is looking to go top of the line. And regularly making those kinds of of recommendations would be silly at best, but most likely irritating.

---------- Post added 06-28-2018 at 07:21 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just think that Norm is right that comparisons of gear need to depend on similar price points. Comparing a D5600 to an A9 or even an A7 III is possible, but the question is more why would you do such a comparison? Better to compare, say, the A7 III to the D750 and the A9 to the D5. If you have that type of money to spend, why would you limit yourself with Nikon, but not with Sony?

These things work both ways of course and it is pretty frequent that folks show up saying how cheap 'x' brand system is and it turns out that they bought all used and third party gear. You can do that with Pentax too, although the market is smaller, but it certainly makes it difficult to make a real comparison

At the same time, Pentax doesn't make a full frame sport camera with really frame rates and if you want that, then you need to go elsewhere.
I agree completely. Comparing feature sets from gear at totally different price points doesn't make any sense from a practical perspective.
06-28-2018, 07:46 AM - 1 Like   #24
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Comparisons on social media (which PF is in part) are a social bonding activity not serious analysis.
06-28-2018, 09:06 AM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
Comparisons on social media (which PF is in part) are a social bonding activity not serious analysis.
Yet the advice available on this site has been a turning point for many people's purchasing decisions. People would be wise to ask some questions here, and if they feel they need what ever you think a "serious analysis" is then at least they will know what to analyze.
06-28-2018, 09:17 AM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Yet the advice available on this site has been a turning point for many people's purchasing decisions. People would be wise to ask some questions here, and if they feel they need what ever you think a "serious analysis" is then at least they will know what to analyze.
Exactly! I agree with most of your original post, Norm. Direct evidence, derived from use, about the performance of specific equipment is invaluable. That has been what has made PF such a treasure for many of us over the years. The problem comes when people just state vague opinions or compare equipment they do not know well. You cannot meaningfully talk about Pentax AF vs Sony AF, for instance. You can talk effectively, as many do, about their experience with specific Pentax cameras and lenses. You do that often and it is very interesting and helpful.
06-28-2018, 09:25 AM - 2 Likes   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Yet the advice available on this site has been a turning point for many people's purchasing decisions. People would be wise to ask some questions here, and if they feel they need what ever you think a "serious analysis" is then at least they will know what to analyze.
Very true, I was pointed at my initial Pentax camera by a B and H video, then here for information on compatible lenses, and since then advice on processing, upgrades and just learning how to take better pictures. I come for a bit of fun, gear envy and learning, and as I am a value buyer, Norm's initial statement rings very true to me. As I said, what can I get IQ-wise and water resistant for under the $4K I may have spent over the past year? Comparisons should be apples to apples, even if one is a Boring old Red Delicious and the other is a perfect Honey Crisp. Or even a Fuji!
06-28-2018, 03:23 PM   #28
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If I had unlimited funds a Leica medium format DSLR it'd be better than any of your Pentaxes.
But I've invested $1100 into my K-70 outfit and I wouldn't trade it for a Nikon or Canon outfit of twice the price.
06-28-2018, 03:38 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentax360 Quote
If I had unlimited funds a Leica medium format DSLR it'd be better than any of your Pentaxes.
But I've invested $1100 into my K-70 outfit and I wouldn't trade it for a Nikon or Canon outfit of twice the price.
There's almost always something better, or something better coming.

I was showing a friend of mine my Pentax gear last summer, and he was helping me with LR. He thought the image quality was very good (and I agree!) Last I had been aware, he'd been shooting with a Canon 5Diii, so I asked about it. But he'd upgraded to all Leica gear over the prior year, including the incredible Noctilux f.95--an $11k lens. It's a lot of $$, and way more than I can imagine paying for a lens, but he loves it. He's been very successful in his career and is passionate about photography, and sometimes shoots for some big publications. He'd spent more than 100x the value of my K3ii in the previous year on Leica gear. Besides being gobsmacked, I was eager to hear about his experiences with Leica--just as he was eager to learn more about my Pentax gear. Of course the comparison wasn't equal, but I enjoyed learning more about a system I wasn't familiar with. And he was genuinely impressed by and interested in some of the features in the K3ii that were foreign to him.
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