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07-12-2018, 03:34 PM   #1
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Mirrorless Confusion

It is currently being heavily rumored that soon Nikon and Canon will release new mirrorless bodies. One would assume that the lens mounts will almost certainly be different than that of the DSLR variants.

Canon and Nikon are reportedly both planning full-frame mirrorless cameras this year – TechCrunch

The absolute largest complaint regarding Pentax is the apparent "lack" of lenses. However, consumers will be beyond willing to purchase these new mirrorless cameras from Canon and Nikon and start over with a brand new lens mount simply because it is mirrorless. I don't understand this, although I personally prefer a DSLR.

Why do you believe people would contradict themselves simply to use mirrorless? This doesn't apply to cameras such as the K-01 which use the k mount.

07-12-2018, 03:44 PM - 1 Like   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by ShaunW Quote
It is currently being heavily rumored that soon Nikon and Canon will release new mirrorless bodies. One would assume that the lens mounts will almost certainly be different than that of the DSLR variants.

Canon and Nikon are reportedly both planning full-frame mirrorless cameras this year TechCrunch

The absolute largest complaint regarding Pentax is the apparent "lack" of lenses. However, consumers will be beyond willing to purchase these new mirrorless cameras from Canon and Nikon and start over with a brand new lens mount simply because it is mirrorless. I don't understand this, although I personally prefer a DSLR.

Why do you believe people would contradict themselves simply to use mirrorless? This doesn't apply to cameras such as the K-01 which use the k mount.
I expect, like when Pentax released the K-1, they will simultaneously release some lenses that cover the basic ranges; wide angle zoom 16-35, standard zoom 24-105, and tele zoom 100-300, and possibly a few others. But the difference between Pentax and CaNikon is that they will have a roadmap promise that has many new lens releases in the next 2 years to fill in the lineup. Pentax is dragging their feet for the sake of quality, but its not bringing anyone new to the brand this way.
07-12-2018, 03:57 PM - 1 Like   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by ShaunW Quote
Why do you believe people would contradict themselves simply to use mirrorless? This doesn't apply to cameras such as the K-01 which use the k mount.
As we saw with Nikon 1, the Pentax Q, and to an extent EOS-M, people are indeed hesitant to move over to new mount types if the benefit is small. Similarly, with the K-01, the appeal of mirrorless just isn't there when the lenses are massive and designed with a mirror in mind.

In the case of full frame, it makes a lot of sense to come up with a new mount, as it helps to reduce weight and also opens up new possibilities while still getting you top-of-the-line image quality. I guess C and N are finally starting to get real about competing with Sony. We'll see where this goes.

The camera industry is in a weird transition period right now, as there are still lots of traditional DSLR users. Until one technology wins out definitively for pros, I think things will remain in this limbo.

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07-12-2018, 04:11 PM - 3 Likes   #4
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07-12-2018, 04:15 PM   #5
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The Nikon and Canon FF mirrorless will more than probably come with some kind of adapter to use the DSLR lenses and ease the transition. This is what we see with the EOS-M, which also can use E lenses.
07-12-2018, 04:30 PM - 2 Likes   #6
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First the new FF is still rumor but in the case of Nikon it is strongly rumored that a full featured F mount adapter (full automation maintained) will be offered. This will allow people to move over without the new lenses without a loss of quality from what they have now presumably. At least that is how they will sell it. Also as said above they will have a roadmap that pushes a lot of lenses quickly to the stores. This is a win / win for these companies if the consumer buys it. They get to RESELL new lenses covering the same range that the loyal customers already own. They get a body sale and a bunch of lens sales. This is a risk as some consumers will jump ship - others hopefully will come to roost.

As for Sony - the initial appeal was often the reuse of old glass and slowly they built up a set of lenses that people started to take seriously.
m43 took over from 43 and had some really interesting starting glass but also decided to go telecentric in their designs which in theory helps with edge to edge sensor performance and is more of an issue on Digital than film. But m43 also markets a lot of slower glass that is excellent and affordable for the casual shooter who wants size and good light performance. Like Sony the appeal of reusing old glass is there as well. The fact that two major manufacturers compete in the same lens and body space makes this a rich environment to play in. Like any hobby the lens collection starts to grow without a lot of intention... lol.
07-12-2018, 04:50 PM   #7
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The future seem to point to MILC. I know I don't like MILC but if that's the future I guess I will just have to learn to like it. If Pentax makes a MILC, I hope it will still use the K-mount. It's difficult to keep changing mounts. It's just too costly and that's why I left Olympus. I don't believe in adapters.
07-12-2018, 04:58 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
First the new FF is still rumor but in the case of Nikon it is strongly rumored that a full featured F mount adapter (full automation maintained) will be offered.
There will be a caveat. Most likely it will only support lenses with electro magnetic aperture. This is"t a problem for Canon, but most Nikon lenses still have mechanical aperture.

Pentax would be in even worse shape...

07-12-2018, 05:12 PM   #9
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If you ask three different people the Original Question, you will get at least four different answers. Canon has patented a new mount, which may be for this purpose, and Nikon has announced they will use something called a "Z-Mount". Most likely Canon will handle this just as they have handled their MILC so far - a few basic lenses and then an adapter which gives full-function access to all the EF-mount lenses they've manufactured in the past thirty years. The answer for Nikon is less clear. For their recently terminated "Nikon 1" series, they provided a few basic lenses and then an adapter which gave access to maybe one-third of their legacy lenses; the Nikon problem is more complicated than any problem Pentax would face, because figuring out which lenses will work on which cameras is more complicated.I expect a similar solution for the Z-mount.
07-12-2018, 05:16 PM - 2 Likes   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
There will be a caveat. Most likely it will only support lenses with electro magnetic aperture. This is"t a problem for Canon, but most Nikon lenses still have mechanical aperture.

Pentax would be in even worse shape...
I'm quite sure that if Pentax ever goes MILC again, it be with something using a K-mount, so they may have no problem at all. I hope Pentax learned the right lesson from the K-01 .... not that MILC is bad, but that lack of viewfinder is bad.
07-12-2018, 05:53 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I hope Pentax learned the right lesson from the K-01 .... not that MILC is bad, but that lack of viewfinder is bad.
Agreed!
07-12-2018, 05:53 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
There will be a caveat. Most likely it will only support lenses with electro magnetic aperture. This is"t a problem for Canon, but most Nikon lenses still have mechanical aperture.
I agree, though with no more evidence than a gut feeling. Either that or the adapter will only provide manual aperture support for legacy F-mount.

QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Pentax would be in even worse shape...
Which is probably why any Pentax MILC will likely not offer strong K-mount support.

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm quite sure that if Pentax ever goes MILC again, it be with something using a K-mount, so they may have no problem at all.
I am pondering this...

Yes, the K-01 continues to have its fans...nope, not going there.


Steve

(...nope, not going there even as parenthetical comment...)
07-12-2018, 06:38 PM - 1 Like   #13
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Obviously to compete with Sony. I only took a look-over of the Sony a7R III and tests to conclude I would rather have what I now have. I could afford to buy the sony outfit, but why? Would it provide imaging significantly better than I can get with my KP and a high-caliber compact lens? I've examined what it can do, quite impressive, but the answer is it cannot. And there is also the file-size issue.

The other aspect is an OVF vs. EVF. With an EVF one is looking at a generated representation of reality, with an OVF one is looking at the reality one gets through the lens. The lighting through the EVF is falsely rendered, which can be a good, useful thing or a misleading thing. Shoot your DSLR with LV and see the difference. Would you want to use such a screen in a VF window as a regular practice?

Then there is the reduction in body size and weight compared to a FF DSLR, which is real. The Sony is around the size of a premium Pentax APS-C DSLR. But the catch is a lens designed for FF sensor use is invariably considerably larger than the equivalent for APS-C, so the complete ensemble will be heavier than the equivalent quality with my KP. As to the K-1 vs. the Sony, there is a lot of discussion regarding those who would embrace the heavier weight because the balance is better with the larger FF lenses, in addition to having the OVF.

Yes, smart phones have destroyed the market for P/S cameras, because they can do the same job and be a phone too. But phones and P/S cameras cannot do what a DSLR is capable of doing. Many people recognize this, so I continue to see people who are carrying smart phones also have a DSLR as well, or at least a MILC with changeable lenses. But perhaps not enough share this recognition. Perhaps we are seeing a segment of what is a widespread syndrome- an acceptance of lower quality and lower capability for the sake of greatest convenience. Not as many go out and buy a nice stereo anymore, instead they buy rinky-dink speakers designed to attach to their smart phones for their music listening.
07-12-2018, 09:28 PM - 1 Like   #14
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Answer to the op. People buy what they are sold. Evidence is that the first models of apsc and full frame mirrorless cameras were inferior to dslr in many ways and yet Fuji and Sony managed to sell , obviously with a significant amount of advertising and promotional efforts. Business wise the mirrorless deal isn't bad: it's harder to sell but then it generates more revenues because changing the lense mount ultimately generates more sales of lenses as opposed to making new camera models with the same mount.
07-12-2018, 11:31 PM   #15
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For Nikon they have a body that's well suited for mirrorless, which would be the DF (albeit different control design).
In general, I think a mirrorless body design similiar to Samsung's NX-1/Sony's A99II would be a good idea for them (if done right) be a bit smaller than their usual dslr's but a smidge bigger than Sony's camera's, I think they would be able to keep their perspective FF mounts (Nikon keeps the F-mount, Canon keeps their EF-mount).

But by the looks of it they're having new mounts for them, so I'm pretty sure they're both going to have an adapter ready the day the camera's are announced, if they didn't it would make them look bad.
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