Remodeling the body

pxt · 08-25-2018, 10:34 AM

Ricoh full frame compact like GR-E as alternative and second camera?

lotech · 08-25-2018, 09:08 PM

Pentax actually was one of the companies that produced most of the cameras with built in grip, let's look back in history we have the Super/Program A, the LX they have grip, other cameras like the Nikon F3, FA, Canon A1 and the Minolta Xs also have grip, it was only recently I read on reviews people doesn't like grip especial on mirrorless. Film cameras with motorized film advance naturally have grip for holding battery so does the DSLR, non motorized film camera may not need a grip, the self timer knob together with the film advance lever can provide some grip support, you know what I mean if you have ever shoot film. For gripless mirrorless like the Fuji XE a 'Thumb Up' hotshoe attachment is a must have for most user for added grip support.

I know the main reason people doesn't like to have built in vertical grip is the added bulk and weight, but weight may not be a bad thing, let me share my experience with you. I shoot Minolta film camera when I started the hobby, most people treated Nikon and Canon the only good cameras back then, except Leica and Contax due to the cost of their lenses few can afford. I always get soft photos I took with my Minolta X700, I thought that's what I can expect have to accept. Then later I bought an old X1, the flag ship model Minolta answer to the Nikon F2 and Canon F1, a big and heavy camera, together with the heavy 58mm/1.2 lens it was an unthinkable combination for non professional use, but guess what, I took my very first sharp photo with it on ISO 100 film handheld ! it wasn't the lens but the heavy solid camera body saved the day even it has no grip ! the shutter shock well absorbed by the solid metal body before reaching the hand.

When comparing the X1 with the X700 I found quite serious shutter shock and rebounce (resonance) on the latter and the shock sounded ‘hollow’, that resulted in slightly shaky photos thus the softness. I also have similar feeling with my K3 but to much less extent, with the help of image stabilization we normally won't notice the effect of the shock, but IMO a reasonably heavy and solid body still better than a light and flimsy one, since I need to grab the camera really tight and steady to shoot so shock will be greatly eliminated. One of the reasons I don't like the Fuji XE2 was the gripless and light body, too light that too much front heavy when mounted with other than the kit zoom, it was very unbalanced on the hand, so if I were to purchase a RF type mirroless I will surely get the battery grip as well for better balance and vertical shooting.

lotech · 08-30-2018, 03:02 AM

This is what I'm taking about.

Samsung WB2200F: Digital Photography Review

**monochrome** · 08-30-2018, 03:22 AM

The K-1 fits my right hand just as it is. Leave it alone. Best camera ergonomics ever.

The K-3 was too small so I sold it. So is the MX. I will eventually sell my KP also - my fingers twist and get all contorted finding buttons and wheels and my right pinky hangs off the bottom.

To me buying a grip to make a small camera comfortable makes the utility of small a contradiction.

lotech · 01-25-2019, 02:24 AM

The new OM camera does have build in grip and use a huge battery, so there are still people wanting the design

reh321 · 01-25-2019, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

The K-1 fits my right hand just as it is. Leave it alone. Best camera ergonomics ever.

The K-3 was too small so I sold it. So is the MX. I will eventually sell my KP also - my fingers twist and get all contorted finding buttons and wheels and my right pinky hangs off the bottom.

To me buying a grip to make a small camera comfortable makes the utility of small a contradiction.

The KP is just right for me - I checked just now .... my gloves are size "M".

sutherland · 01-25-2019, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by lotech

The new OM camera does have build in grip and use a huge battery, so there are still people wanting the design

I think the design could appeal to some, but I think the extended grip could have been a design outcome driven by other factors (eg: power and battery life). Having the batteries lay horizontal allow for:
- more batteries
- a larger battery
- a higher voltage battery

Different cameras that have an integrated grip take advantage of it for different reasons. D5 requires the larger/higher voltage battery to enable higher frame captures. A D850 NEEDS the optional grip and different battery to expand its FPS rate from the base 7FPS to 9FPS.

Other rational behind the integrated grip is due to the glass that is usually mounted to it. It's not uncommon to see D5 strapped to an exotic prime like a 500 f/4, 600 f/4, or 800 f/5.6. These lenses are often gimbal/tripod mounted and photographers will rotate the lens for different orientations (eg: landscape vs. portrait). A vertical grip or integrated grip enable for that shutter/af/command dial controls in both orientations.

I shoot my D500 gripped because I don't like my pinky to hang off when handling 500mm f/4 glass. I do not shoot gripped when using my 300mm f/4 as it is a light enough kit and a grip offers nothing more than bulk.

**monochrome** · 01-25-2019, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by reh321

The KP is just right for me - I checked just now .... my gloves are size "M".

Well there you go. My glove size is L or Mens’s 10

**Larrymc** · 01-27-2019, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by lotech

I just check out the old news and I forgot Pentax showcased the first FF DSLR long time ago, it was the MZ-D, I find it very ugly in the first look, but now I feel it actually quite innovative and stylish , and it got a built in grip as well, that's how I wanted the new Pentax to be like !

pentax: Pentax MZ-D

Well don't hold your breath.

lesmore49 · 01-28-2019, 02:31 PM

Essentially Pentax or other camera manufacturers can't provide a camera where one size fits all. If you have smaller hands...don't use a Pentax grip. If you have larger hands, add a grip to a K series body. Think Pentax has a great system where you can actually add camera grip to the bodies...or not. An attempt by Pentax...and a good solution...to try to fit the variance of hand sizes of different consumers, out there in the market.

The Pentax K10D, K5 and K-1 suit me fine, as is...with Pentax grips added in each case. I take an XL glove. I find my hands are too big for any of these three bodies...without the grips added. I need the extra surface area of the grips, to get a good grip on the camera. I don't notice the extra weight of the grip, even with an extra battery added. I add the extra battery as I like to be able to switch to a charged battery...right away, should the body battery run out of power.

I'm larger/taller than average and when it comes to finding something that fits...I have to search around.

Cars for example. I find it difficult to get a car that I fit into comfortably. I need lots of leg room , shoulder room and head room and frankly most vehicles don't provide this, unless I get a pickup, which my wife doesn't want, neither do I need one, for that matter.

Large cars like the Chevy Impala, Buick LaCrosse provide plenty of room for me... around 45 inches of front legroom. I see GM, Ford are dropping their large sedans, but in checking out other large sedans, I see that the Nissan Maxima 4 door, has 45 inches of front legroom. I'll eventually check one of those out, see if there is also adequate head and shoulder room and if so, good, another large sedan that will fit me.

When it comes to clothes, no matter what the baseball cap manufacturers say...one size fits all...well not the case in life. Thank heavens there are Mr. Big & Tall shops for guys like me, to get clothes that fit.

When it comes to cameras, Pentax as mentioned before has done some good work in coming up with a 'fit' for most of their customers...with the detachable battery grip.

My vote, leave the Pentax dimensions generally as is...they work well. I have a smaller camera, a Canon G 12 and although a great little camera...it's a bit on the tiny size for me and I can't fit it in most of my pockets. So ever decreasing size in cameras is ok, but let's remember you get too tiny and that won't always work out well. Nothing is perfect as there are so many ideas of what makes 'perfection' .

Tan68 · 02-01-2019, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by lotech

...

Let's go back in history take a look at the Canon T90 :

Canon T90 - Wikipedia

It was the most innovative film camera at the time, it got a not so comfortable vertical grip built in, with an add on release bottom option, it takes 4AA cell ...

T90 has no vertical grip.
T90 has no release bottom option.

No vertical grip because no second set of buttons to be used when the camera is held vertically. The little bulge at the bottom of the T90 offers less grip than the scallop on the left side of a K20. The bulge at the bottom of the T90 is solely to house the AA batteries...

I don't really know what is "...add on release bottom option..." if there is an idea the battery compartment can be removed, the answer is no.

One bit of magic the T90 got that would be nice to have : little switch by viewfinder closes a shutter so light don't enter through that viewfinder. More better than using tape or paper or futzing with the hotshoe cover.

---------- Post added 02-01-19 at 08:44 AM ----------

Originally posted by lotech

That make me re-think do I need a FF or APSC ? in terms of IQ and handling I am quite happy with my K3, and there is not too much to 'WoW' about to jump from APSC to FF except for ...

In making the decision, I considered the digital crop possible with the K-1. I use a few prime lenses. With the K-1, I could carry one lens less and crop to make the difference. I am okay cropping and the focal length I left behind was never used much. With that lens left behind, there was not much more weight with the K-1 and the K-1 with lenses I do carry just shoehorns into the holster bag I used for the K5. So, I netted very little difference with the set-up...

I think my rationalization will be suitable for very few people.

---------- Post added 02-01-19 at 08:49 AM ----------

Originally posted by lesmore49

... Large cars like the Chevy Impala, Buick LaCrosse provide plenty of room for me... around 45 inches of front legroom. I see GM, Ford are dropping their large sedans, but in checking out other large sedans, I see that the Nissan Maxima 4 door, has 45 inches of front legroom. I'll eventually check one of those out, see if there is also adequate head and shoulder room and if so, good, another large sedan that will fit me. ...

I imagine they are not dropping the large sedans so as the large sedans are becoming large trucks. More people want the 'crossover' vehicle or whatever it is called this decade.

There is more to fitting a car than leg length alone. Some people like the ball of their foot on pedals and some like tip-toes. Of course, the tip-toe driver need more leg room. Then there's booty. I sit closer to the wheel than some people shorter than me (and with shorter legs) because I have less junk in the trunk. A girl with more on the package shelf has to scooch the seat back.

Anyway, imagine all the different stuff car designer people have to worry with. Camera designers only have to worry about pinky placement and fingernail length. Well.. and that alien-length middle finger some people have. Pooh sure could use one to get honey out of his pot but other than that.. ???

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08-25-2018, 10:34 AM	#16
pxt Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 290	Ricoh full frame compact like GR-E as alternative and second camera?

08-25-2018, 09:08 PM	#17
lotech Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,312 Original Poster	Pentax actually was one of the companies that produced most of the cameras with built in grip, let's look back in history we have the Super/Program A, the LX they have grip, other cameras like the Nikon F3, FA, Canon A1 and the Minolta Xs also have grip, it was only recently I read on reviews people doesn't like grip especial on mirrorless. Film cameras with motorized film advance naturally have grip for holding battery so does the DSLR, non motorized film camera may not need a grip, the self timer knob together with the film advance lever can provide some grip support, you know what I mean if you have ever shoot film. For gripless mirrorless like the Fuji XE a 'Thumb Up' hotshoe attachment is a must have for most user for added grip support. I know the main reason people doesn't like to have built in vertical grip is the added bulk and weight, but weight may not be a bad thing, let me share my experience with you. I shoot Minolta film camera when I started the hobby, most people treated Nikon and Canon the only good cameras back then, except Leica and Contax due to the cost of their lenses few can afford. I always get soft photos I took with my Minolta X700, I thought that's what I can expect have to accept. Then later I bought an old X1, the flag ship model Minolta answer to the Nikon F2 and Canon F1, a big and heavy camera, together with the heavy 58mm/1.2 lens it was an unthinkable combination for non professional use, but guess what, I took my very first sharp photo with it on ISO 100 film handheld ! it wasn't the lens but the heavy solid camera body saved the day even it has no grip ! the shutter shock well absorbed by the solid metal body before reaching the hand. When comparing the X1 with the X700 I found quite serious shutter shock and rebounce (resonance) on the latter and the shock sounded ‘hollow’, that resulted in slightly shaky photos thus the softness. I also have similar feeling with my K3 but to much less extent, with the help of image stabilization we normally won't notice the effect of the shock, but IMO a reasonably heavy and solid body still better than a light and flimsy one, since I need to grab the camera really tight and steady to shoot so shock will be greatly eliminated. One of the reasons I don't like the Fuji XE2 was the gripless and light body, too light that too much front heavy when mounted with other than the kit zoom, it was very unbalanced on the hand, so if I were to purchase a RF type mirroless I will surely get the battery grip as well for better balance and vertical shooting.

08-30-2018, 03:02 AM	#18
lotech Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,312 Original Poster	This is what I'm taking about. Samsung WB2200F: Digital Photography Review

08-30-2018, 03:22 AM	#19
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	The K-1 fits my right hand just as it is. Leave it alone. Best camera ergonomics ever. The K-3 was too small so I sold it. So is the MX. I will eventually sell my KP also - my fingers twist and get all contorted finding buttons and wheels and my right pinky hangs off the bottom. To me buying a grip to make a small camera comfortable makes the utility of small a contradiction.

01-25-2019, 02:24 AM	#20
lotech Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,312 Original Poster	The new OM camera does have build in grip and use a huge battery, so there are still people wanting the design

01-25-2019, 08:31 AM	#21
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,185	Originally posted by monochrome The K-1 fits my right hand just as it is. Leave it alone. Best camera ergonomics ever. The K-3 was too small so I sold it. So is the MX. I will eventually sell my KP also - my fingers twist and get all contorted finding buttons and wheels and my right pinky hangs off the bottom. To me buying a grip to make a small camera comfortable makes the utility of small a contradiction. The KP is just right for me - I checked just now .... my gloves are size "M".

01-25-2019, 08:51 AM	#22
sutherland Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 220	Originally posted by lotech The new OM camera does have build in grip and use a huge battery, so there are still people wanting the design I think the design could appeal to some, but I think the extended grip could have been a design outcome driven by other factors (eg: power and battery life). Having the batteries lay horizontal allow for: - more batteries - a larger battery - a higher voltage battery Different cameras that have an integrated grip take advantage of it for different reasons. D5 requires the larger/higher voltage battery to enable higher frame captures. A D850 NEEDS the optional grip and different battery to expand its FPS rate from the base 7FPS to 9FPS. Other rational behind the integrated grip is due to the glass that is usually mounted to it. It's not uncommon to see D5 strapped to an exotic prime like a 500 f/4, 600 f/4, or 800 f/5.6. These lenses are often gimbal/tripod mounted and photographers will rotate the lens for different orientations (eg: landscape vs. portrait). A vertical grip or integrated grip enable for that shutter/af/command dial controls in both orientations. I shoot my D500 gripped because I don't like my pinky to hang off when handling 500mm f/4 glass. I do not shoot gripped when using my 300mm f/4 as it is a light enough kit and a grip offers nothing more than bulk.

01-25-2019, 04:42 PM	#23
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by reh321 The KP is just right for me - I checked just now .... my gloves are size "M". Well there you go. My glove size is L or Mens’s 10

01-27-2019, 10:58 AM	#24
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,252	Originally posted by lotech I just check out the old news and I forgot Pentax showcased the first FF DSLR long time ago, it was the MZ-D, I find it very ugly in the first look, but now I feel it actually quite innovative and stylish , and it got a built in grip as well, that's how I wanted the new Pentax to be like ! pentax: Pentax MZ-D Well don't hold your breath.

01-28-2019, 02:31 PM	#25
lesmore49 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Western Canada Posts: 12,349	Essentially Pentax or other camera manufacturers can't provide a camera where one size fits all. If you have smaller hands...don't use a Pentax grip. If you have larger hands, add a grip to a K series body. Think Pentax has a great system where you can actually add camera grip to the bodies...or not. An attempt by Pentax...and a good solution...to try to fit the variance of hand sizes of different consumers, out there in the market. The Pentax K10D, K5 and K-1 suit me fine, as is...with Pentax grips added in each case. I take an XL glove. I find my hands are too big for any of these three bodies...without the grips added. I need the extra surface area of the grips, to get a good grip on the camera. I don't notice the extra weight of the grip, even with an extra battery added. I add the extra battery as I like to be able to switch to a charged battery...right away, should the body battery run out of power. I'm larger/taller than average and when it comes to finding something that fits...I have to search around. Cars for example. I find it difficult to get a car that I fit into comfortably. I need lots of leg room , shoulder room and head room and frankly most vehicles don't provide this, unless I get a pickup, which my wife doesn't want, neither do I need one, for that matter. Large cars like the Chevy Impala, Buick LaCrosse provide plenty of room for me... around 45 inches of front legroom. I see GM, Ford are dropping their large sedans, but in checking out other large sedans, I see that the Nissan Maxima 4 door, has 45 inches of front legroom. I'll eventually check one of those out, see if there is also adequate head and shoulder room and if so, good, another large sedan that will fit me. When it comes to clothes, no matter what the baseball cap manufacturers say...one size fits all...well not the case in life. Thank heavens there are Mr. Big & Tall shops for guys like me, to get clothes that fit. When it comes to cameras, Pentax as mentioned before has done some good work in coming up with a 'fit' for most of their customers...with the detachable battery grip. My vote, leave the Pentax dimensions generally as is...they work well. I have a smaller camera, a Canon G 12 and although a great little camera...it's a bit on the tiny size for me and I can't fit it in most of my pockets. So ever decreasing size in cameras is ok, but let's remember you get too tiny and that won't always work out well. Nothing is perfect as there are so many ideas of what makes 'perfection' .

02-01-2019, 07:13 AM	#26
Tan68 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 501	Originally posted by lotech ... Let's go back in history take a look at the Canon T90 : Canon T90 - Wikipedia It was the most innovative film camera at the time, it got a not so comfortable vertical grip built in, with an add on release bottom option, it takes 4AA cell ... T90 has no vertical grip. T90 has no release bottom option. No vertical grip because no second set of buttons to be used when the camera is held vertically. The little bulge at the bottom of the T90 offers less grip than the scallop on the left side of a K20. The bulge at the bottom of the T90 is solely to house the AA batteries... I don't really know what is "...add on release bottom option..." if there is an idea the battery compartment can be removed, the answer is no. One bit of magic the T90 got that would be nice to have : little switch by viewfinder closes a shutter so light don't enter through that viewfinder. More better than using tape or paper or futzing with the hotshoe cover. ---------- Post added 02-01-19 at 08:44 AM ---------- Originally posted by lotech That make me re-think do I need a FF or APSC ? in terms of IQ and handling I am quite happy with my K3, and there is not too much to 'WoW' about to jump from APSC to FF except for ... In making the decision, I considered the digital crop possible with the K-1. I use a few prime lenses. With the K-1, I could carry one lens less and crop to make the difference. I am okay cropping and the focal length I left behind was never used much. With that lens left behind, there was not much more weight with the K-1 and the K-1 with lenses I do carry just shoehorns into the holster bag I used for the K5. So, I netted very little difference with the set-up... I think my rationalization will be suitable for very few people. ---------- Post added 02-01-19 at 08:49 AM ---------- Originally posted by lesmore49 ... Large cars like the Chevy Impala, Buick LaCrosse provide plenty of room for me... around 45 inches of front legroom. I see GM, Ford are dropping their large sedans, but in checking out other large sedans, I see that the Nissan Maxima 4 door, has 45 inches of front legroom. I'll eventually check one of those out, see if there is also adequate head and shoulder room and if so, good, another large sedan that will fit me. ... I imagine they are not dropping the large sedans so as the large sedans are becoming large trucks. More people want the 'crossover' vehicle or whatever it is called this decade. There is more to fitting a car than leg length alone. Some people like the ball of their foot on pedals and some like tip-toes. Of course, the tip-toe driver need more leg room. Then there's booty. I sit closer to the wheel than some people shorter than me (and with shorter legs) because I have less junk in the trunk. A girl with more on the package shelf has to scooch the seat back. Anyway, imagine all the different stuff car designer people have to worry with. Camera designers only have to worry about pinky placement and fingernail length. Well.. and that alien-length middle finger some people have. Pooh sure could use one to get honey out of his pot but other than that.. ???