When will Pentax catch up to the other big makers?

reh321 · 08-21-2018, 02:13 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by clackers

And hit the Live View button - voila! Mirrorless operation.

No EVF

I remain convinced that EVF is the real power of MILC.
Some people love EVF and will go to MILC.
Some people hate EVF and will stay with DSLR.

Tigs · 08-21-2018, 02:27 PM

Vs nikon 5600

where I think the k-70 stays ahed
grip and ergonomics
Better and easier to access menus / interface
IBIS!!!!! Stabilization on any lens!
Pixel shift
Astro trace compatibility
Focus peaking!!! and live view zoom for nailing MF
Compatibility with vintage lenses
Viewfinder magnification (not 100%sure)
Weather resistance
Also probably less noise at high iso and better DR

The d5600 is basically a d5300 with touchscreen. And not a good option for video.

**clackers** · 08-21-2018, 02:27 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by reh321

No EVF

I remain convinced that EVF is the real power of MILC.
Some people love EVF and will go to MILC.
Some people hate EVF and will stay with DSLR.

Phone users don't seem to have any problem with Live View screens.

I have three MILCs, two with EVF and think 'Meh' about them, Reh321.

You've got to pay a lot of money for that stream of JPGs to not have lag.

cymric · 08-21-2018, 02:47 PM - **1 Like**

I think the Ricoh GR is still one of the most well designed cameras I've ever used. So the short answer. I don't care about them catching up to other brands as long as they keep making thoughtful cameras.

- SM

reh321 · 08-21-2018, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Phone users don't seem to have any problem with Live View screens.

I have three MILCs, two with EVF and think 'Meh' about them, Reh321.

You've got to pay a lot of money for that stream of JPGs to not have lag.

My comment was originally responding to your comment that a DSLR camera in LV mode is a MILC. Doesn't that still have some kind of lag? A DSLR in LV is at best a crippled MILC - you're stuck with some variation of the "zombie" position. I do take photos with a smart phone, and everytime I do it I think 'meh'.

**beachgardener** · 08-21-2018, 03:33 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reh321

Some people hate EVF and will stay with DSLR.

exactly, optical rules man !!!

**BigMackCam** · 08-21-2018, 03:33 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reh321

No EVF

I remain convinced that EVF is the real power of MILC.
Some people love EVF and will go to MILC.
Some people hate EVF and will stay with DSLR.

I've said this so many times on these forums, so I'm sure you good folks will be tired of me re-iterating it, but...

An interchangeable-lens camera that combines both OVF and EVF through one viewfinder - either one selectable, or combined to various extents - is the next thing that will really grab my attention, if it ever materialises.

I love my DSLRs, and when I can work with an OVF, that's what I'd rather have. For me, it just feels nicer to use. But I also love my SLT / mirrorless cameras for different reasons, and sometimes, they're the only valid option.

Each type of viewfinder, despite the limitations - and they are significant for both, has distinct advantages over the other depending on use case.

I even love my old Q and Q7, without any EVF, because I have a near-pocket-sized DSLR (feature-wise... even, arguably, in terms of IQ) when combined with the excellent system lenses (I'd have preferred an EVF, but not if it would have impacted the size).

Find a way to combine OVF and EVF so that each can be employed individually, or in tandem, for individual use cases, and my credit card is ready

photoptimist · 08-21-2018, 04:05 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I've said this so many times on these forums, so I'm sure you good folks will be tired of me re-iterating it, but...

An interchangeable-lens camera that combines both OVF and EVF through one viewfinder - either one selectable, or combined to various extents - is the next thing that will really grab my attention, if it ever materialises.

I love my DSLRs, and when I can work with an OVF, that's what I'd rather have. For me, it just feels nicer to use. But I also love my SLT / mirrorless cameras for different reasons, and sometimes, they're the only valid option.

Each type of viewfinder, despite the limitations - and they are significant for both, has distinct advantages over the other depending on use case.

I even love my old Q and Q7, without any EVF, because I have a near-pocket-sized DSLR (feature-wise... even, arguably, in terms of IQ) when combined with the excellent system lenses (I'd have preferred an EVF, but not if it would have impacted the size).

Find a way to combine OVF and EVF so that each can be employed individually, or in tandem, for individual use cases, and my credit card is ready

An OVF-EVF hybrid is my dream camera, too.

I prefer to compose with a OVF but I'd love for the captured shot to briefly show in the VF before the mirror drops back into OVF mode. That kind of chimping without taking my eye from the viewfinder would catch a proverbial 99% of my botched shots because I ran out of headroom of exposure, the white balance was off, picked the wrong exposure mode, or twitched during the shot.

Mark Ransom · 08-21-2018, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I've said this so many times on these forums, so I'm sure you good folks will be tired of me re-iterating it, but...

An interchangeable-lens camera that combines both OVF and EVF through one viewfinder - either one selectable, or combined to various extents - is the next thing that will really grab my attention, if it ever materialises.

I love my DSLRs, and when I can work with an OVF, that's what I'd rather have. For me, it just feels nicer to use. But I also love my SLT / mirrorless cameras for different reasons, and sometimes, they're the only valid option.

Each type of viewfinder, despite the limitations - and they are significant for both, has distinct advantages over the other depending on use case.

I even love my old Q and Q7, without any EVF, because I have a near-pocket-sized DSLR (feature-wise... even, arguably, in terms of IQ) when combined with the excellent system lenses (I'd have preferred an EVF, but not if it would have impacted the size).

Find a way to combine OVF and EVF so that each can be employed individually, or in tandem, for individual use cases, and my credit card is ready

A camera with two different viewfinder technologies will cost significantly more than one that is focused on a single tech. As cool as that idea is, I don't think anybody would even attempt it.

The closest thing would be a clip-on EVF accessory.

**BigMackCam** · 08-21-2018, 04:44 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Mark Ransom

A camera with two different viewfinder technologies will cost significantly more than one that is focused on a single tech. As cool as that idea is, I don't think anybody would even attempt it.

The closest thing would be a clip-on EVF accessory.

Cost more? Sure, I agree. Significantly more? Well, I think that's arguable. If you consider DSLR, Sony SLT (semi-translucent mirror technology) and mirrorless, candidate technologies (if not the ideal ones) already exist. Bringing them together is a challenge, no doubt, but I don't believe it's unachievable, even at a sensible price. That's just my opinion. Until then, I'm happy with my combination of DSLR and mirrorless-with-EVF cameras

reh321 · 08-21-2018, 04:51 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Mark Ransom

A camera with two different viewfinder technologies will cost significantly more than one that is focused on a single tech. As cool as that idea is, I don't think anybody would even attempt it.

Remember that a DSLR bounces light from lens to movable mirror to prism to eye.
Find a different way to orient that mirror so that it reflects light from an EVF, and you'd have it.
I know that is easier said than done, and I'm not the right kind of engineer, but it sounds feasible to me.

photoptimist · 08-21-2018, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Mark Ransom

A camera with two different viewfinder technologies will cost significantly more than one that is focused on a single tech. As cool as that idea is, I don't think anybody would even attempt it.

The closest thing would be a clip-on EVF accessory.

Although a hybrid would cost more, the cost delta would be quite low (probably no more that 20%) relative to the prices for high-end flagship cameras. The top-of-the-line for any camera brand is always about added bells and whistles that differentiate the best models from the mid-range (and significantly increase the costs). People expect to pay more to get more.

**clackers** · 08-21-2018, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by reh321

My comment was originally responding to your comment that a DSLR camera in LV mode is a MILC. Doesn't that still have some kind of lag? A DSLR in LV is at best a crippled MILC - you're stuck with some variation of the "zombie" position. I do take photos with a smart phone, and everytime I do it I think 'meh'.

Correct.

Put me in the OVF camp, Reh, if you haven't worked it out yet.

Mark Ransom · 08-21-2018, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by reh321

Remember that a DSLR bounces light from lens to movable mirror to prism to eye.
Find a different way to orient that mirror so that it reflects light from an EVF, and you'd have it.
I know that is easier said than done, and I'm not the right kind of engineer, but it sounds feasible to me.

Oh I'm sure it's feasible. But good EVFs aren't cheap.

northcoastgreg · 08-21-2018, 06:09 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Rondec

My understanding is that a lot of this is attributable to pentax still using a pretty old version of the Milbeaut engine.

That would be my suspicion as well. Part of the problem is that darn H264 codec (a great codec for outputting edited video for consumption on the web) is not so great for DSLRs using older processors. If Pentax was still using the old MotionJpeg codec, I suspect we'd be getting better video out of cameras like the KP. I remember back in the K-5 days, people complaining about the size of video files and how "old" the MJpeg codec was compared to H264. So Pentax responded to these complaints by ditching MJpeg and now the quality of video has gone down a few notches. Got to be careful what you complain about. Sometimes there's underappreciated tradeoffs involved, and if we gain in one area, we'll lose double somewhere else. That appears to have also happened in response to complaints about noise caused by mechanical SR, which caused Pentax to ditch that form of SR and replace it with electronic SR.

08-21-2018, 02:27 PM	#227
Tigs Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 146	Vs nikon 5600 where I think the k-70 stays ahed grip and ergonomics Better and easier to access menus / interface IBIS!!!!! Stabilization on any lens! Pixel shift Astro trace compatibility Focus peaking!!! and live view zoom for nailing MF Compatibility with vintage lenses Viewfinder magnification (not 100%sure) Weather resistance Also probably less noise at high iso and better DR The d5600 is basically a d5300 with touchscreen. And not a good option for video. Last edited by Tigs; 08-21-2018 at 02:34 PM.

08-21-2018, 04:51 PM - 1 Like	#236
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by Mark Ransom A camera with two different viewfinder technologies will cost significantly more than one that is focused on a single tech. As cool as that idea is, I don't think anybody would even attempt it. Remember that a DSLR bounces light from lens to movable mirror to prism to eye. Find a different way to orient that mirror so that it reflects light from an EVF, and you'd have it. I know that is easier said than done, and I'm not the right kind of engineer, but it sounds feasible to me. Last edited by reh321; 08-21-2018 at 04:55 PM. Reason: missed 'k' in "know"

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08-21-2018, 02:13 PM - 1 Like	#226
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by clackers And hit the Live View button - voila! Mirrorless operation. No EVF I remain convinced that EVF is the real power of MILC. Some people love EVF and will go to MILC. Some people hate EVF and will stay with DSLR.

08-21-2018, 02:27 PM - 2 Likes	#228
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by reh321 No EVF I remain convinced that EVF is the real power of MILC. Some people love EVF and will go to MILC. Some people hate EVF and will stay with DSLR. Phone users don't seem to have any problem with Live View screens. I have three MILCs, two with EVF and think 'Meh' about them, Reh321. You've got to pay a lot of money for that stream of JPGs to not have lag.

08-21-2018, 02:47 PM - 1 Like	#229
cymric Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Bhubaneswar; A State in the East of India Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 296	I think the Ricoh GR is still one of the most well designed cameras I've ever used. So the short answer. I don't care about them catching up to other brands as long as they keep making thoughtful cameras. - SM

08-21-2018, 03:00 PM	#230
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by clackers Phone users don't seem to have any problem with Live View screens. I have three MILCs, two with EVF and think 'Meh' about them, Reh321. You've got to pay a lot of money for that stream of JPGs to not have lag. My comment was originally responding to your comment that a DSLR camera in LV mode is a MILC. Doesn't that still have some kind of lag? A DSLR in LV is at best a crippled MILC - you're stuck with some variation of the "zombie" position. I do take photos with a smart phone, and everytime I do it I think 'meh'.

08-21-2018, 03:33 PM - 1 Like	#231
beachgardener Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,842	Originally posted by reh321 Some people hate EVF and will stay with DSLR. exactly, optical rules man !!!

08-21-2018, 03:33 PM - 1 Like	#232
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by reh321 No EVF I remain convinced that EVF is the real power of MILC. Some people love EVF and will go to MILC. Some people hate EVF and will stay with DSLR. I've said this so many times on these forums, so I'm sure you good folks will be tired of me re-iterating it, but... An interchangeable-lens camera that combines both OVF and EVF through one viewfinder - either one selectable, or combined to various extents - is the next thing that will really grab my attention, if it ever materialises. I love my DSLRs, and when I can work with an OVF, that's what I'd rather have. For me, it just feels nicer to use. But I also love my SLT / mirrorless cameras for different reasons, and sometimes, they're the only valid option. Each type of viewfinder, despite the limitations - and they are significant for both, has distinct advantages over the other depending on use case. I even love my old Q and Q7, without any EVF, because I have a near-pocket-sized DSLR (feature-wise... even, arguably, in terms of IQ) when combined with the excellent system lenses (I'd have preferred an EVF, but not if it would have impacted the size). Find a way to combine OVF and EVF so that each can be employed individually, or in tandem, for individual use cases, and my credit card is ready

08-21-2018, 04:05 PM - 1 Like	#233
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,123	Originally posted by BigMackCam I've said this so many times on these forums, so I'm sure you good folks will be tired of me re-iterating it, but... An interchangeable-lens camera that combines both OVF and EVF through one viewfinder - either one selectable, or combined to various extents - is the next thing that will really grab my attention, if it ever materialises. I love my DSLRs, and when I can work with an OVF, that's what I'd rather have. For me, it just feels nicer to use. But I also love my SLT / mirrorless cameras for different reasons, and sometimes, they're the only valid option. Each type of viewfinder, despite the limitations - and they are significant for both, has distinct advantages over the other depending on use case. I even love my old Q and Q7, without any EVF, because I have a near-pocket-sized DSLR (feature-wise... even, arguably, in terms of IQ) when combined with the excellent system lenses (I'd have preferred an EVF, but not if it would have impacted the size). Find a way to combine OVF and EVF so that each can be employed individually, or in tandem, for individual use cases, and my credit card is ready An OVF-EVF hybrid is my dream camera, too. I prefer to compose with a OVF but I'd love for the captured shot to briefly show in the VF before the mirror drops back into OVF mode. That kind of chimping without taking my eye from the viewfinder would catch a proverbial 99% of my botched shots because I ran out of headroom of exposure, the white balance was off, picked the wrong exposure mode, or twitched during the shot.

08-21-2018, 04:32 PM	#234
Mark Ransom Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 498	Originally posted by BigMackCam I've said this so many times on these forums, so I'm sure you good folks will be tired of me re-iterating it, but... An interchangeable-lens camera that combines both OVF and EVF through one viewfinder - either one selectable, or combined to various extents - is the next thing that will really grab my attention, if it ever materialises. I love my DSLRs, and when I can work with an OVF, that's what I'd rather have. For me, it just feels nicer to use. But I also love my SLT / mirrorless cameras for different reasons, and sometimes, they're the only valid option. Each type of viewfinder, despite the limitations - and they are significant for both, has distinct advantages over the other depending on use case. I even love my old Q and Q7, without any EVF, because I have a near-pocket-sized DSLR (feature-wise... even, arguably, in terms of IQ) when combined with the excellent system lenses (I'd have preferred an EVF, but not if it would have impacted the size). Find a way to combine OVF and EVF so that each can be employed individually, or in tandem, for individual use cases, and my credit card is ready A camera with two different viewfinder technologies will cost significantly more than one that is focused on a single tech. As cool as that idea is, I don't think anybody would even attempt it. The closest thing would be a clip-on EVF accessory.

08-21-2018, 04:44 PM - 1 Like	#235
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by Mark Ransom A camera with two different viewfinder technologies will cost significantly more than one that is focused on a single tech. As cool as that idea is, I don't think anybody would even attempt it. The closest thing would be a clip-on EVF accessory. Cost more? Sure, I agree. Significantly more? Well, I think that's arguable. If you consider DSLR, Sony SLT (semi-translucent mirror technology) and mirrorless, candidate technologies (if not the ideal ones) already exist. Bringing them together is a challenge, no doubt, but I don't believe it's unachievable, even at a sensible price. That's just my opinion. Until then, I'm happy with my combination of DSLR and mirrorless-with-EVF cameras

08-21-2018, 04:52 PM	#237
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,123	Originally posted by Mark Ransom A camera with two different viewfinder technologies will cost significantly more than one that is focused on a single tech. As cool as that idea is, I don't think anybody would even attempt it. The closest thing would be a clip-on EVF accessory. Although a hybrid would cost more, the cost delta would be quite low (probably no more that 20%) relative to the prices for high-end flagship cameras. The top-of-the-line for any camera brand is always about added bells and whistles that differentiate the best models from the mid-range (and significantly increase the costs). People expect to pay more to get more.

08-21-2018, 05:15 PM	#238
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by reh321 My comment was originally responding to your comment that a DSLR camera in LV mode is a MILC. Doesn't that still have some kind of lag? A DSLR in LV is at best a crippled MILC - you're stuck with some variation of the "zombie" position. I do take photos with a smart phone, and everytime I do it I think 'meh'. Correct. Put me in the OVF camp, Reh, if you haven't worked it out yet.

08-21-2018, 05:27 PM	#239
Mark Ransom Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 498	Originally posted by reh321 Remember that a DSLR bounces light from lens to movable mirror to prism to eye. Find a different way to orient that mirror so that it reflects light from an EVF, and you'd have it. I know that is easier said than done, and I'm not the right kind of engineer, but it sounds feasible to me. Oh I'm sure it's feasible. But good EVFs aren't cheap.

08-21-2018, 06:09 PM - 1 Like	#240
northcoastgreg Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Northern Michigan Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,173	Originally posted by Rondec My understanding is that a lot of this is attributable to pentax still using a pretty old version of the Milbeaut engine. That would be my suspicion as well. Part of the problem is that darn H264 codec (a great codec for outputting edited video for consumption on the web) is not so great for DSLRs using older processors. If Pentax was still using the old MotionJpeg codec, I suspect we'd be getting better video out of cameras like the KP. I remember back in the K-5 days, people complaining about the size of video files and how "old" the MJpeg codec was compared to H264. So Pentax responded to these complaints by ditching MJpeg and now the quality of video has gone down a few notches. Got to be careful what you complain about. Sometimes there's underappreciated tradeoffs involved, and if we gain in one area, we'll lose double somewhere else. That appears to have also happened in response to complaints about noise caused by mechanical SR, which caused Pentax to ditch that form of SR and replace it with electronic SR.