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10-28-2018, 06:58 AM - 2 Likes   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Some Pentax employees may be oblivious to it because, as commented by CarlJF above, they don't see many since the problems typically occur after the warranty has expired
Pentax authorized repair depots do however see repairs after the warranty expire, and Pentax certainly knows how many solenoids are being ordered. If your argument depends on what you think Pentax doesn't know, your biggest problem is your lack of creativity in understanding how Pentax could know the things you think they don't know. When it come to knowing who nows what, some guy on a photo forum probably knows next to nothing and I clearly don't want to rely on some guys faulty logic. The argument "Pentax doesn't know but I do." is one I'd personally discourage people from saying, unless they have direct proof, not the impossible to refute indirect stuff you see here on the forum. I'm sure other camera companies have their issues as well. Harping on Pentax's is simply unfair.

The Pentax tech guy said the problem is rare. Which of you here is better qualified to offer an opinion? The fact that you can string some obscure facts into a conspiracy theory doesn't count for anything.


Last edited by normhead; 10-28-2018 at 07:04 AM.
10-28-2018, 08:18 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by bladerunner6 Quote
Here is another way to look at the issue. Pentax's production of the K-1 is something on the order of 7000 per month. The best data I can find suggests a 16-20% share for full frame. I will be generous towards photogem and say that the FF has 25% for Pentax. That means 3X APSC camera sales which would be 21,000/month. The cameras involved are most affordable in the lineup so for the sake of convenience I will say they sell at the rate of 10,000 per month, slightly less than half of total APSC sales. The K-30 was announced in May 2012 so I will again be generous towards photogem and say it has been six years so 6X12X10000=720000 cameras sold in that period.

So out of these hundreds of thousands of cameras sold when we have the internet that allows you to complain about everything to everyone we have this level of feedback? I see nothing that says there are 25% of these cameras failing.
Let's assume you're right and that there were 720,000 cameras sold with the aperture blocks that seem to have a higher-than-expected failure rate. And that your estimate is the upper bound of failure rate is 6%. So we'll say the real rate is 4%. That means there have been about 29,000 aperture block failures, or the equivalent of almost three months worth of production.


I wouldn't classify that as rare, but then again I don't build cameras. Perhaps 1/20th or 1/25th of cameras quitting with the same failure mechanism is normal.
10-28-2018, 09:23 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Pentax authorized repair depots do however see repairs after the warranty expire, and Pentax certainly knows how many solenoids are being ordered. If your argument depends on what you think Pentax doesn't know, your biggest problem is your lack of creativity in understanding how Pentax could know the things you think they don't know. When it come to knowing who nows what, some guy on a photo forum probably knows next to nothing and I clearly don't want to rely on some guys faulty logic. The argument "Pentax doesn't know but I do." is one I'd personally discourage people from saying, unless they have direct proof, not the impossible to refute indirect stuff you see here on the forum. I'm sure other camera companies have their issues as well. Harping on Pentax's is simply unfair.

The Pentax tech guy said the problem is rare. Which of you here is better qualified to offer an opinion? The fact that you can string some obscure facts into a conspiracy theory doesn't count for anything.
If it is truly rare, then Pentax should publicly announce that they will repair all cases of this gratis - at another discussion forum {not DPR} where I am a regular, I have had to respond to a number of threads warning about purchasing Pentax for this reason, saying "It's not as dire as you represent it".

Last edited by reh321; 10-28-2018 at 09:37 AM. Reason: added "gratis"
10-28-2018, 09:45 AM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
If it is truly rare, then Pentax should publicly announce that they will repair all cases of this gratis - at another discussion forum {not DPR} where I am a regular, I have had to respond to a number of threads warning about purchasing Pentax for this reason, saying "It's not as dire as you represent it".
That's unfortunately not how any reality I live in works. Extended warranties are typically issued due to common problems not rare ones in almost any industry imaginable.

Extended warranties on xbox 360s were because the RRoD was an inevitable death, not because it was "a rare outlier".

Extended warranties on early 2000s Honda Accord automatic transmissions were offered because the problems were nearly 1 in 5. And even then they didn't do it until being threatened to do so.


Last edited by ZombieArmy; 10-28-2018 at 09:53 AM.
10-28-2018, 09:55 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
That's unfortunately not how any reality I live in works. Extended warranties are typically issued due to common problems not rare ones in almost any industry imaginable.
I agree with this sentiment. I got an extended warranty on my latest transmission control module for my Ford Focus but not for my new starter.
10-28-2018, 09:58 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
If it is truly rare, then Pentax should publicly announce that they will repair all cases of this gratis - at another discussion forum {not DPR} where I am a regular, I have had to respond to a number of threads warning about purchasing Pentax for this reason, saying "It's not as dire as you represent it".
I think most companies want to avoid making a public statement that they will repair uncommon problems out of warranty. That opens up a can of worms.
10-28-2018, 10:07 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Let's assume you're right and that there were 720,000 cameras sold with the aperture blocks that seem to have a higher-than-expected failure rate. And that your estimate is the upper bound of failure rate is 6%. So we'll say the real rate is 4%. That means there have been about 29,000 aperture block failures, or the equivalent of almost three months worth of production.


I wouldn't classify that as rare, but then again I don't build cameras. Perhaps 1/20th or 1/25th of cameras quitting with the same failure mechanism is normal.
Zero failure rates for mechanical products can be hard to achieve. People also put these items through various forms of misuse. Also, after a certain point products can fail due to age. My K-50 is four years old, if it fails next year is that something Ricoh should repair? I would say no.

Is 4% a typical number, yes, it appears so. If anything, it is low.

Point-and-Shoot or SLR Need a Camera Repair? - Consumer Reports

Last edited by bladerunner6; 10-28-2018 at 10:16 AM.
10-28-2018, 12:13 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by runswithsizzers Quote
For me, the "problem" is not so much the total number of failures, but that Pentax never acknowledged that there was a problem.
What constitutes "acknowledgement"? My memory is that they became aware of the problem about the same time as the rest of us, that Pentax customer service and repair facilities were helpful, that repairs were made under warranty and that Ricoh extended warranty by several months for several users on this forum based in part on the frequency of the issue. Unfortunately, the problem typically began to manifest post warranty and in the case of some users whose cameras were used sporadically, several years passed before they noticed there was a problem.

As noted above, the actual percentage of affected buyers is unknown, though a survey of users on this site has some useful information:

Pentax Aperture Block Failure Survey Results - Articles and Tips | PentaxForums.com

The accusation is often made that Ricoh continued to produce cameras with known-bad components for years after the issue became apparent. The assumptions being:
  • That they were aware of the extent of the problem with the K-30 before the bulk of K-50 bodies were made
  • That the problem had been fully characterized soon enough to avoid using the culprit solenoids
  • That the culprit solenoids could be demonstrated defective at some point in the QA process
  • That Ricoh put full production runs to market knowing there was a fatal flaw that would only manifest after warranty expiration
Whether any of the above are true is difficult to establish.


Steve

(...had failure of a K-50 purchased for a close friend that happened two months out of warranty in Winter 2015...fixed at no charge by Pentax...)


Last edited by stevebrot; 10-28-2018 at 01:52 PM.
10-28-2018, 12:32 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by bladerunner6 Quote
Is 4% a typical number, yes, it appears so. If anything, it is low.

Point-and-Shoot or SLR Need a Camera Repair? - Consumer Reports
The most recent survey results for ILC at Consumer Reports are not quite so sanguine, but a complete read of the linked article is useful. In the most recent survey, Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Pentax are separated by three percentage points overall at a failure rate about twice that of the 2016 article linked above. FWIW, the most recent survey is retrospective from 2011 to Q1 2017 for failure within three years of purchase and includes the full K-30 and K-50 production.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 10-28-2018 at 01:53 PM.
10-28-2018, 12:36 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The most recent survey results for ILC at Consumer Reports are not quite so sanguine, but a complete read of the article is useful. In the most recent survey, Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Pentax are separated by three percentage points overall at a failure rate about twice that of the 2016 article linked above.


Steve
Could you link that please or is it behind a paywall?

If you canít link, could you give the percentage for C, N, S & P, please.

Thanks.
10-28-2018, 01:10 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by bladerunner6 Quote
Could you link that please or is it behind a paywall?

If you can’t link, could you give the percentage for C, N, S & P, please.

Thanks.
Paywall...

SLR:
Canon -- 7%
Nikon -- 8%
Sony -- 8%
Pentax -- 10%

MILC
Canon -- 6%
Panasonic -- 7%
Fujifilm -- 9%
Sony -- 10%
Nikon -- 11%
Olympus -- 14%

Same time frames with significance being set at greater than 5 points.

Addendum: Unfortunately, they don't do aggregate statistics for camera types across brands.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 10-28-2018 at 01:18 PM.
10-28-2018, 01:33 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Let's assume you're right and that there were 720,000 cameras sold with the aperture blocks that seem to have a higher-than-expected failure rate. And that your estimate is the upper bound of failure rate is 6%. So we'll say the real rate is 4%. That means there have been about 29,000 aperture block failures, or the equivalent of almost three months worth of production.


I wouldn't classify that as rare, but then again I don't build cameras. Perhaps 1/20th or 1/25th of cameras quitting with the same failure mechanism is normal.
4% is a very low failure rate for digital cameras.
10-28-2018, 01:41 PM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
4% is a very low failure rate for digital cameras.
...but not unusual a few years ago when the Consumer Reports survey results were usually between 3% and 7%. Pentax was usually at 4% or 5% for most of those years.
10-28-2018, 01:41 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Paywall...

SLR:
Canon -- 7%
Nikon -- 8%
Sony -- 8%
Pentax -- 10%

MILC
Canon -- 6%
Panasonic -- 7%
Fujifilm -- 9%
Sony -- 10%
Nikon -- 11%
Olympus -- 14%

Same time frames with significance being set at greater than 5 points.

Addendum: Unfortunately, they don't do aggregate statistics for camera types across brands.


Steve
Thanks, that was informative.

And I appreciate the effort.

Not really that big of a spread although Olympus is a bit of an outlier.
10-28-2018, 02:08 PM   #45
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I think the question from Pentax's standpoint is what percent of cameras failed in the warranty period. My guess is that the number was actually fairly small. Obviously this is a problematic way of looking at it, but on the other hand, the life span of these cameras isn't forever and Pentax has only guaranteed 1 year of warranty support in the US.

I guess the question, at this point, is whether current models -- K-P or K70 are affected by said issue. If they aren't then the last camera affected was the K50, which hasn't been current for three years. Certainly, even if this was an issue, Pentax isn't going to consider a current issue.
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