[normhead]

The evidence is that the aperture control is the the weak link on the K-30/50 .... the shutter is at least as good as any other consumer-grade shutter .... and the aperture control 'likes to work'; often we will see a post that says something like "I took my K-30 off the shelf where it had sat for a month, and suddenly the images were dark" - obviously a camera which is churning out 100K+ images per year isn't experiencing much 'idle time'.

Exactly, part of the problem is user shooting preference. What other things may effect it, no one knows, but if there is one there could be more.

[reh321]

Every mechanical device, except perhaps the "one hoss shay", has a weak link - the part that normally fails first. For recent lower-tier Pentax products, that weak link has been the Aperture Control Module. In a counter-intuitive twist, that part seems to 'need' work/exercise, which is an unfortunate quality for a consumer-level camera to have. Perhaps, that is why it is so noticeable. No one may know what the true failure rate is, but to answer the Original Poster's Original Question, "Yes, aperture control is a real problem in lower tier Pentax cameras".

[normhead]

Every mechanical device, except perhaps the "one hoss shay", has a weak link - the part that normally fails first. For recent lower-tier Pentax products, that weak link has been the Aperture Control Module. In a counter-intuitive twist, that part seems to 'need' work/exercise, which is an unfortunate quality for a consumer-level camera to have. Perhaps, that is why it is so noticeable. No one may know what the true failure rate is, but to answer the Original Poster's Original Question, "Yes, aperture control is a real problem in lower tier Pentax cameras".

Yet I don't know personally a single person who has experienced it. It seems to be "real problem" for some people, not for others. Once again you exaggerate the point. I'd say it has the potential to be a problem. But the factors around that are completely unknown, and based on stats above, it affects at maximum 10% of cameras, given the quote 10% failure rate for Pentax cameras. Although a lot of those failures are probably some other type of failure, so even that's an exaggeration.

Unless there is some concrete information to be relayed, apart from guesses based on incomplete data, opinions based on indirect information and the resulting faulty analysis, I suggest you give this a rest. I've done my best to hear you out, and all you've produced is a lot of smoke and mirrors type assumptions.

Stated as someone who doesn't really care one way or the other. if Pentax has committed some crime here I'm happy to speak out against them. I just want them to be treated fairly. And this looks like witch hunt to me. Some part has to be the first to fail in a system that has more moving parts than an auto-mobile. The fact that this part often fails first in many cameras is as far as I can tell happenstance. Is the failure rate unreasonable is the only issue, and you'd need better numbers to prove that.

This is particularly disconcerting because the K-30 is so old. People who have had the use of the camera for 5 years are complaining because it wore out. That to me seems completely unreasonable.

[reh321]

To answer the Original Poster's Original Question, "Yes, aperture control is a real(*) problem in lower tier Pentax cameras"

(*) where 'real' means 'genuine'

[normhead]

To answer the Original Poster's Original Question, "Yes, aperture control is a real(*) problem in lower tier Pentax cameras"

(*) where 'real' means 'genuine'

A real problem with a less than 10% chance of affecting the camera you buy would be a more accurate assessment.

At one point 10% of the responders in the Tamron 70-200 review section had received lenses that were dead on arrival or failed within 2 weeks. There was no concerted effort to discredit Tamron. Why is this different?

If you buy a camera at some point something may fail and you may have to repair it, Looks like the brakes on my vehicle. I've replaced my brakes 3 times in 6 years. I wasn't expecting that, but, I bought my second set with a warranty and got the third set for free. Otherwise, I like the car. The ABF thing is your brakes issue. If you like the camera you'll deal with it. Complaing solves nothing. But if someone asks me should I buy a K-30, my answer is going too "no, it's too old. There have been lots of advances since then. Take this opportunity to get something newer" APF wouldn't even enter my mind. ABF is signal that this was not the camera you were looking for. But for 90% (best guess) of users, it worked out just fine.

It's simply not a problem for everybody, and for the majority for whom it isn't, it's not a problem at all. For an undetermined small percentage of users it is.

And fer griefs sake, if you want something that might last 10 years, buy a flagship model. My response to is Aperture Block Failure a problem?" would be. "It might be, if you want more reliability buy a flagship model". Answers that sound like it's problem for 100% of cameras with 100% of the users are just flat out lying. At most it's 10% and more than likely a lot less than that. That's the reality. Why you insist on making it sound as bad as possible, I have no idea. Except I guess, in your reality, one failure, like the one on your camera, is 100% of your reality. That's a pretty lame excuse of you are framing general statements.

Someone suggested they knew of at least 30 failures. I once saw at least of at least 200 K-30s on a skid at Costco that were all gone next time visited the store. That's one store in one city. There were thousands of these sold If the problem is a serious as you all keep hinting, there should be thousands of complaints. . Not 50, not 100, thousands. Lets try and keep it real.

The issue could be bigger than we know. But a lot of people when their 5 year old camera dies, just go and buy another camera. Yes the camera may have failed, but they looked at it and said, 'It gave me my money's worth" and went on with their lives. There's an inability to move on here. If you want to advise people not to buy K-30s or K-50s, fine. Pentax doesn't sell them anymore. You must be adressing the second hand market. And any second hand anything can have issues of some kind.

[reh321]

A real problem with a less than 10% chance of affecting the camera you buy would be a more accurate assessment.

At one point 10% of the responders in the Tamron 70-200 review section had received lenses that were dead on arrival or failed within 2 weeks. There was no concerted effort to discredit Tamron. Why is this different?

If you buy a camera at some point something may fail and you may have to repair it, Looks like the brakes on my vehicle. I've replaced my brakes 3 times in 6 years. I wasn't expecting that, but, I bought my second set with a warranty and got the third set for free. Otherwise, I like the car. The ABF thing is your brakes issue. If you like the camera you'll deal with it. Complaing solves nothing. But if someone asks me should I buy a K-30, my answer is going too "no, it's too old. There have been lots of advances since then. Take this opportunity to get something newer" APF wouldn't even enter my mind. ABF is signal that this was not the camera you were looking for. But for 90% (best guess) of users, it worked out just fine.

It's simply not a problem for everybody, and for the majority for whom it isn't, it's not a problem at all. For an undetermined small percentage of users it is.

And fer griefs sake, if you want something that might last 10 years, buy a flagship model. My response to is Aperture Block Failure a problem?" would be. "It might be, if you want more reliability buy a flagship model". Answers that sound like it's problem for 100% of cameras with 100% of the users are just flat out lying. At most it's 10% and more than likely a lot less than that. That's the reality. Why you insist on making it sound as bad as possible, I have no idea. Except I guess, in your reality, one failure, like the one on your camera, is 100% of your reality. That's a pretty lame excuse of you are framing general statements.

Someone suggested they knew of at least 30 failures. I once saw at least of at least 200 K-30s on a skid at Costco that were all gone next time visited the store. That's one store in one city. There were thousands of these sold If the problem is a serious as you all keep hinting, there should be thousands of complaints. . Not 50, not 100, thousands. Lets try and keep it real.

The issue could be bigger than we know. But a lot of people when their 5 year old camera dies, just go and buy another camera. Yes the camera may have failed, but they looked at it and said, 'It gave me my money's worth" and went on with their lives. There's an inability to move on here. If you want to advise people not to buy K-30s or K-50s, fine. Pentax doesn't sell them anymore. You must be adressing the second hand market. And any second hand anything can have issues of some kind.

This discussion between us is ironic - last year, I was the one pushing for smaller numbers in these discussions, trying to pull 'hotheads' away from numbers like 50%; I am also the one who has argued in "K-70 vs KP" discussions that build quality favors the KP, that we should not always tell someone "Purchase the K-70 because it is just like the KP, only less costly" .... so we don't really disagree.

Looking at the numbers from a previous page

Canon -- 7%
Nikon -- 8%
Sony -- 8%
Pentax -- 10%

...but not unusual a few years ago when the Consumer Reports survey results were usually between 3% and 7%. Pentax was usually at 4% or 5% for most of those years.

I quite honestly believe that upper tier Pentax bodies remain more reliable than their Canon counterparts, that the aperture control issue is what now pulls the overall Pentax average so high, so much above its traditional levels. Based on that, I tend to support a number like 15% - 20% as a more accurate likelihood of aperture failure - but I'm really tired of being 'the bad guy" in this discussion, so I won't say any more, and you can use whatever number you feel comfortable with.

[stevebrot]

to answer the Original Poster's Original Question, "Yes, aperture control is a real problem in lower tier Pentax cameras".

Correction: ...was a problem with a past model type (e.g. K-30/K-50/K-500) of Pentax cameras.

The distinction is small, but important. This was a supply chain issue and has nothing to do with those models being other than top tier. What the affected models had in common was assembly lines and parts bins.

As for stigma on the brand, my advice for buyers seeking a used camera is to avoid the K-30, K-50, and K-500 and to use customary caution for other models. The avoidance flag is due, not to pervasiveness, but to the notion that known bad cameras are being sold as good and that the risk of ABF is present. In other words, no stigma to the brand or cautions regarding the consumer range products.


Steve

[stevebrot]

I quite honestly believe that upper tier Pentax bodies remain more reliable than their Canon counterparts, that the aperture control issue is what now pulls the overall Pentax average so high, so much above its traditional levels. Based on that, I tend to support a number like 15% - 20% as a more accurate likelihood of aperture failure - but I'm really tired of being 'the bad guy" in this discussion, so I won't say any more, and you can use whatever number you feel comfortable with.

I came to the same conclusion and estimate of failure numbers. As for you wearing the black hat, I suspect that is due to nuance of wording in some comments. Your opinions are valid and your contribution valued.


Steve

[stevebrot]

Yet I don't know personally a single person who has experienced it.

Sadly, I do. I advised a close friend to buy a K-50 and was dismayed when her camera showed symptoms similar to those of K-30 owners a little over a year after purchase. To the best of my knowledge, the fix done by Precision has held and the owner remains happy with her camera.


Steve

[ZombieArmy]

I am also the one who has argued in "K-70 vs KP" discussions that build quality favors the KP, that we should not always tell someone "Purchase the K-70 because it is just like the KP, only less costly" .... so we don't really disagree..

It's a difference of hundreds of dollars. It's the difference of someone being able to access a camera and not. I think it's ludicrous to suggest someone shouldn't buy a camera because there's a small percentage something might happen years down the line (maybe). I think this is a risk everyone takes with lower end products for anything they buy, especially things with a lot of physically moving parts.

So yes the K-70 basically is the KP for a lot of people, but accessible.

[reh321]

It's a difference of hundreds of dollars. It's the difference of someone being able to access a camera and not. I think it's ludicrous to suggest someone shouldn't buy a camera because there's a small percentage something might happen years down the line (maybe). I think this is a risk everyone takes with lower end products for anything they buy, especially things with a lot of physically moving parts.

So yes the K-70 basically is the KP for a lot of people, but accessible.

The person asking the question can usually afford either body. I believe those offering advice should clearly indicate there is a build quality issue, and then let the potential purchaser decide, but the words usually imply no discernible difference.

[Hamiltom]

I think that I would have to agree that "Yes, aperture control IS a real problem in lower tier Pentax cameras". The strangest feature of the failure is the opposite of what would be normally happen. They fail from LACK of use!

The 2 K30s and 1 K50 in my extended family have ALL succumbed to the problem. Yet my 3 MZ series and 2 K100d are still functioning fine. and they use the identical system to set aperture. The MZ10 I tried recently has not been used in at least 20 years and works perfectly.

I think we all know what happened, including the folks at Pentax. It is so typical of the way things are today. Bean counters come before quality control.

Anyway, I personally do not recommend any Pentax models with the aperture solenoid to anyone, including the K70, at least until they fix or allow trade in credits on the units that have failed.

[kernos]

Well it did spark a real interest in M42 lenses on my part now that I have a permanent K30 M42 camera. So, there is a bit of a silver lining. I will say that with my Precision fixed K50 that went delinquent again, I'd sell it full disclosure and for under $200. Really, all the advice I've seen for buying a used K5ii(s) or K3(ii) instead of a new K70 seems good. The quiet shutter and peace of mind alone are worth it.

[stevebrot]

Bean counters come before quality control.

Assuming of course that the component failure was accessible to QC processes. (Hint: it wasn't and isn't)

Presumably, similar failures happened with multiple products worldwide that used the problematic solenoid.* An avoidance of Pentax cameras is understandable. Perhaps Canon might be a better choice. Only 1 in 14 buyers experienced a failure with that brand.


Steve

* That little part is widely used in small electrical devices in a wide range of products ranging from CD ROM drives to latches of various types.

[stevebrot]

Well it did spark a real interest in M42 lenses on my part now that I have a permanent K30 M42 camera.

Really, all the advice I've seen for buying a used K5ii(s) or K3(ii) instead of a new K70 seems good. The quiet shutter and peace of mind alone are worth it.

The quiet shutter comes with the K-3(ii), a significant improvement over the K-5 series.


Steve