[6BQ5]

One issue with M4/3 and the reason I upgraded to full frame, perhaps the main reason, is DOF control. Yes, a 25mm f1.2 or similar on M4/3 is compact and capable of fine results but the actual aperture of that lens is much smaller.

This might not be a problem. I actually thought it was an advantage on APS-C when I was shooting indoor professional (AHL) hockey shooting at f2.8 I was getting the DOF of f/4 which covered up some focus errors and/or DOF issues.

Fuji makes a compelling system. I think the X-T1/2/3 series cameras are pretty nice. They have a nice lens lineup. But the system isn't cheap and it's not perfect. Battery life is pretty awful as one issue. I think from an ergonomics and UI point of view Pentax is one of the best in the business at making cameras that just make sense. That's not a knock on fuji, I own their X10 and I think it's a great camera, I've played extensively with the X-T2 when I was considering buying into fuji.

If you really just want a super small camera with the novelty of interchangeable lenses, you can pick up a used Pentax Q system pretty cheaply. I think it will even accept old Pentax 110 lenses with an adapter.

Yeah, my X-T3 eats through batteries really fast when blasting through bursts. Thankfully spare batteries are pretty cheap. Considering the AF and burst performance I'm OK with the compromise.

[Francisco Carneiro]

We've all been very busy too ... trying to find out what your decision is ??
Cheers!

Yes, I know, and I am very grateful, but I want to be back this weekend with all the necessary fresh energy.
I was exhausted the last days and also, very busy, not being able to be in front of my computer,
working day and night, to pay my taxes and a new camera!

Pentaxforum, hopefully today! See you very soon!

[Francisco Carneiro]

Ok... my final decision!
Pentax 645 Z !!
No, I'm joking...

[grispie]

No, it is partly about the sensor. The Olympus and Panasonic cameras have so-called MFT sensors - even more 'cropped' than APS-C - which inevitably means weakness in higher ISO values. People can quibble about DxOMark methods, but the comparison below reflects that truth.

true. personally i would not invest in a system smaller than apsc. apsc still seems the better compromise to me.
this said, i know one day i will buy a pentax FF :-). Simply because i already have lenses for it...

[Francisco Carneiro]

Well !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's see where all this thread leaded me.
This is the fruit of lots of work, yours and mine.
It's been very pleasant and instructive to be here in this forum.
That's allways good to thank you.



OK.

Options and most important features for me :

- "Oly" OMD 5 II

. Very Kute! Love at first sight 5 stars
. Very small 5 stars
. Very good viewfinder 4/5 stars
. Stabilization 5 stars
. Raw 3/5 stars
. Jpeds 3 stars
. Lenses, Lots of choices less expensive, compact 5 stars Total (subjective) 38 Points
. AF 4 stars
. Menu 3 stars




- Pentax KP

. Sorry, it is almost huggly for me 3 stars
. Small 4 stars
. Very good viewfinder 4/5 stars
. Stabilization 4 stars
. Raw 4/5 stars
. Jpegs 4 stars
. Lenses, Very good, lots of choices, expensive 4.5 stars Total (subjective) 36.5 Points
. AF 4 stars
. Menu (It's a guess) 4 stars



- Fujifilm XT2

. Beautiful, serious 5 stars
. Small 4 stars
. Very good viewfinder 5 stars
. Stabilization, None if LOIS lens 3 stars
. Raw 5 stars
. Jpegs 4/5 stars
. Lenses, Really good, enough choices, VERY exp 4 stars Total (subjective) 40.5 Points
. AF 5 stars
. Menu (intuitive) 5 stars


The winner is not necessarilly the one that gets the high score, because many things where not considered
and a few items are much more important for me than others, so those five stars for each item do not have allways the same real value.
This can increase or decrease the score. That's why the score is subjective. Let's not forget that many things are out of my knowledge and perception, so
the score is a litle bit incomplete.

That's why you are helping me, each time I give you my point of view, you give me yours, based on much more knowledge and perception
than the knowledge and the perception I have. Also, You may not agree with my evaluations, and I will allways be glad to "hear" your opinion and advise.
I am not looking for persons who think the same as me...

Comments?

[Francisco Carneiro]

Well !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's see where all this thread leaded me.
This is the fruit of lots of work, yours and mine.
It's been very pleasant and instructive to be here in this forum.
That's allways good to thank you.



OK.

Options and most important features for me :

- "Oly" OMD 5 II with kit lens or prime

. Very Kute! Love at first sight ------------------------------------------------- 4,5 stars
. Very small---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 stars
. Very good viewfinder------------------------------------------------------------ 4/5 stars
. Stabilization-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 stars
. Raw------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4 stars
. Jpeds-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3,5 stars
. Lenses, Lots of choices less expensive, compact------------------------- 5 stars========================= Total (subjective) 47 Points
. AF-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 stars
. Menu---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 stars
. Handling, liitle hands, it is light, no grip, good ergonomics help------3/5 stars
. Resolution, 16MP.................................................................................4 stars
. Weather sealing, yes------------------------------------------------------wins----1 star







- Pentax KP with kit lens or prime

. Sorry, it is almost huggly for me----------------------------------------------- 4 stars
. Small------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3,5 stars
. Very good viewfinder----------------------------------------------------------- 4/5 stars
. Stabilization------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 stars
. Raw--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4/5 stars
. Jpegs--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 stars
. Lenses, Very good, lots of choices, expensive-------------------------- 4.5 stars========================= Total (subjective) 48 Points
. AF------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 stars
. Menu (It's a guess)---------------------------------------------------------------- 4 stars
. Handling------------------------------------------------------------------------------5 stars
. Resolution, 24MP------------------------------------------------------------------5 stars
.Weather sealing,yes, wins one!----------------------- ---------------------------1 star







- Fujifilm XT2 body only

. Beautiful, serious------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 stars
. Small---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 stars
. Very good viewfinder-------------------------------------------------------------- 5 stars
. Stabilization, None if LOIS lens------------------------------------------------ 3 stars
. Raw----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 stars
. Jpegs------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4/5 stars
. Lenses, Really good, enough choices, VERY expensive----------------4 stars========================= Total (subjective) 49.5 Points
. AF-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 stars
. Menu (intuitive)--------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 stars
. Handling, (one can buy a grip, but let's forget it)----------------------------3 stars
. Resolution, 24MP-------------------------------------------------------------------5 stars
. Weather sealing, yes---------------------------------------------------------------1 star





The winner is not necessarilly the one that gets the high score, because many things where not considered
and a few items are much more important for me than others, so those five stars for each item do not have allways the same real value.
This can increase or decrease the score. That's why the score is subjective. Let's not forget that many things are out of my knowledge and perception, so
the score is a litle bit incomplete.

That's why you are helping me, each time I give you my point of view, you give me yours, based on much more knowledge and perception
than the knowledge and the perception I have. Also, You may not agree with my evaluations, and I will allways be glad to "hear" your opinion and advise.
I am not looking for persons who think the same as me...

Comments?

---------- Post added 12-07-18 at 06:00 AM ----------

The final choice is almost done, but not yet! I'll wait for comments.

[grispie]

the category 'handling' is missing..

[Francisco Carneiro]

All of these cams sell for more or less the same.

---------- Post added 12-07-18 at 06:04 AM ----------

the category 'handling' is missing..

Yes, I will add it to the list, thanks.

---------- Post added 12-07-18 at 06:11 AM ----------

the category 'handling' is missing..

done!

[grispie]

you actually played around with all three cameras?

For me, the biggest bummer on the olympus was indeed the handling of it. I could not hold with one hand.
I also thought it looked nicer on paper than in real life. I figured the oly 5II would be a nice travel camera with the 12 - 40 2.8 on it. It is in a way.
But i thought, well, my pentax kr with a good lens is not that much bigger..

I'm surprised you thought the kp to be almost ugly.

[Francisco Carneiro]

I will be changing and add parametres to my scores as long as we discuss and I change my mind or have important information for me.

---------- Post added 12-07-18 at 06:47 AM ----------

you actually played around with all three cameras?

For me, the biggest bummer on the olympus was indeed the handling of it. I could not hold with one hand.
I also thought it looked nicer on paper than in real life. I figured the oly 5II would be a nice travel camera with the 12 - 40 2.8 on it. It is in a way.
But i thought, well, my pentax kr with a good lens is not that much bigger..

I'm surprised you thought the kp to be almost ugly.

I didn't play around with the cameras, but I think I try to simulate it, based on photos, reviews, feedback, etc etc etc.

Well, I may change about being KP almost ugly when I'll have one in my hand, and I will,
but I am also very relutant about carrying a reflex. I hated to carry my Nikon.

Having seen a lot of photos, I think it is not retro at all and I don't find it elegant.

Yes, I also feel that Oly should be paired with the 12 40 but you know it's price...

---------- Post added 12-07-18 at 07:07 AM ----------

What about scoring the DOF control?

---------- Post added 12-07-18 at 07:13 AM ----------

I changed the KP looks score because it looks very serious, not beautiful for me but serious

[Rondec]

I will say that the thing that drew me to Pentax was the lenses.

The DA 40.



15 limited.



31 limited.



77 limited.



DA *55



The zooms are nice too. To me, the lenses from Pentax do have a different feel and look from those from other brands. It isn't to say that you can't good photos with those brands, because of course you can. But it is the glass that brings me back when certainly I could flip it for another brand pretty easily, if I wanted to.

Regardless, I have said many times before, but I will repeat it -- there are no bad cameras out there.

[grispie]

15 limited.

gorgeous picture showcasing what this lens can do..!

[northcoastgreg]

For me, the biggest bummer on the olympus was indeed the handling of it. I could not hold with one hand.
I also thought it looked nicer on paper than in real life. I figured the oly 5II would be a nice travel camera with the 12 - 40 2.8 on

This shows how subjective much of this is. I've never had handling issues with the E-M5ii; but then again, I've avoided using lenses as heavy as the 12-40 with the camera, so maybe that's part of it. Which leads to another issue with the m43: the dearth of high quality compact zoom lenses. That Oly 12-40 weighs more than three of four FF zoom lenses I routinely use with my K-1, which seems rather odd to me. However small and compact and light-weight a camera may be, if you put a big and heavy lens on a small compact camera, it's no longer a small compact camera.

That said, no camera system is superior to any other as such, but only in terms of the actual needs of specific photographers, which differ from photographer to photographer. So the key in choosing a system is to find what system bets meets one's specific needs. But that means finding out what those needs are, and then determining which system best fits your needs. I, for example, find DR to be very important, because I do extensive raw developing in post. But if you don't do much raw PP, if you prefer dark shadows, and/or jpeg, you may not need more than the 3 stops of DR (at base ISO) that m43 gives you (most Canon cameras, FF or otherwise, provide similar level of DR). I don't like shooting large lenses on small cameras. So when I look at these FF mirrrorless systems, I'm appalled by some lens-camera combinations I'm seeing. But for those who don't care about size of lens versus camera, that won't be an issue and FF mirrorless might make sense.

[Francisco Carneiro]

I will say that the thing that drew me to Pentax was the lenses.

The DA 40.



15 limited.



31 limited.



77 limited.



DA *55



The zooms are nice too. To me, the lenses from Pentax do have a different feel and look from those from other brands. It isn't to say that you can't good photos with those brands, because of course you can. But it is the glass that brings me back when certainly I could flip it for another brand pretty easily, if I wanted to.

Regardless, I have said many times before, but I will repeat it -- there are no bad cameras out there.

Pentax images begin to be familiar to me. Very nice for landscapes!

---------- Post added 12-07-18 at 08:53 AM ----------

This shows how subjective much of this is. I've never had handling issues with the E-M5ii; but then again, I've avoided using lenses as heavy as the 12-40 with the camera, so maybe that's part of it. Which leads to another issue with the m43: the dearth of high quality compact zoom lenses. That Oly 12-40 weighs more than three of four FF zoom lenses I routinely use with my K-1, which seems rather odd to me. However small and compact and light-weight a camera may be, if you put a big and heavy lens on a small compact camera, it's no longer a small compact camera.

That said, no camera system is superior to any other as such, but only in terms of the actual needs of specific photographers, which differ from photographer to photographer. So the key in choosing a system is to find what system bets meets one's specific needs. But that means finding out what those needs are, and then determining which system best fits your needs. I, for example, find DR to be very important, because I do extensive raw developing in post. But if you don't do much raw PP, if you prefer dark shadows, and/or jpeg, you may not need more than the 3 stops of DR (at base ISO) that m43 gives you (most Canon cameras, FF or otherwise, provide similar level of DR). I don't like shooting large lenses on small cameras. So when I look at these FF mirrrorless systems, I'm appalled by some lens-camera combinations I'm seeing. But for those who don't care about size of lens versus camera, that won't be an issue and FF mirrorless might make sense.

I like to do a litle of everything. Macro, portrait, landscape, street, flowers, animals, birds, abstract...

---------- Post added 12-07-18 at 08:56 AM ----------

I will say that the thing that drew me to Pentax was the lenses.

The DA 40.



15 limited.



31 limited.



77 limited.



DA *55



The zooms are nice too. To me, the lenses from Pentax do have a different feel and look from those from other brands. It isn't to say that you can't good photos with those brands, because of course you can. But it is the glass that brings me back when certainly I could flip it for another brand pretty easily, if I wanted to.

Regardless, I have said many times before, but I will repeat it -- there are no bad cameras out there.

Incredible dynamic range

[Francisco Carneiro]

Yeah, my X-T3 eats through batteries really fast when blasting through bursts. Thankfully spare batteries are pretty cheap. Considering the AF and burst performance I'm OK with the compromise.

Hello,
Could you please give an evaluation to those three cameras I choosed, in terms of DOF?
If you feel like doing it.