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10-01-2008, 12:36 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
There is no upgrade path after the K20D in the Pentax *system*, what to you want to argue (rudely)?
What are you talking about an upgrade path for? I know there's a language barrier between us but sometimes I think it's a planet barrier because you're way out there.
The OP is thinking about upgrading from a K100 super, a K20 is going to be good for a year or two for this person so why worry about an upgrade path.

Where was I arguing? I admit that I wrote - I told you before, "Be Nice Please" - when I should have used the word 'asked' instead of 'told' and I apologise for that. When have you ever apologised for anything on this forum?
You never give advice, you never help anyone, you never say anything reasonable. All you do is use the slightest opportunity to say bad things about Pentax and post links to your poxy blog.
It seems to me that you are nothing but a bitter, twisted, pathetic, anti- social, relentlessly tedious little man.
Please start being more sociable and congenial to other people on this forum or, alternatively, find another forum to lurk on, that is if you can find one that will put up with you.
I only read your posts because it makes me feel good to know that I am so much happier than you, but even that novelty is wearing thin.

There, now I have been rude to you and you know what? It felt great.

10-01-2008, 07:05 AM   #47
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RH Do you think Pentax is dropping its kx0 line of cameras? Or is he supposed to buy one now and then buy one a few months later before the K20d super comes out? I fail to follow your logic.

If you really don't believe the K20d is capable of taking good pictures for a long time then you really have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about photography.

Last edited by Okami; 10-01-2008 at 05:48 PM.
10-01-2008, 08:03 AM   #48
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Gadget "Versus" Photography??

So, what's the Conflict between gadget and photography??

Will a better gadget makes photos it produces by the same person worse??

But will a worse gadget makes the final results worse???

The relation is clear but there is no conflict of any kind as you supposed.

Mind you that its the OP to ask D90 or K20, which I answered his question on topic. What "bashing"? Pls don't go off-topic and not worse to go it personal.


QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
RH Do you think Pentax is dropping its kx0 line of cameras? Or is he supposed to buy one now and then buy one a few months later before the K20d super comes out? I fail to follow your logic. If you bother to read anyone elses post at all other than replying with your Pentax bashing you would know that Hinman is one of those photographers that actually bothers to use every piece of camera equipment to it's fullest before even thinking about upgrading (which is what you are supposed to do if you love photography not gadgets). By the time he needs an upgrade he will have taken thousands of great pictures and will be a year or more down the road.

If you really don't believe the K20d is capable of taking good pictures for a long time then you really have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about photography.
10-01-2008, 10:49 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
Hinman,

with your constant mention of you wanting to buy the D90 it's obvious what you want to do. Go ahead and try it.

I just really don't see the advantage of the D90 over a K20d
I keep an open mind to all things. I think if I have no camera background and no preferences to a brand, the D90 still appeals to me as a middle-tier Nikon body that excels in areas in noise control, IQ, reasonable ergonomics, added movie that appeal to some and not others. Price wise, it is not much different than K20D as a body only consideration. Various discussions study D90 noise level very similar to Nikon D300. That alone attracts me as K10D don't serve me well in ISO800 and above. And I think K20D will do better in noise control but I can't tell if D90 is better than K20D in terms of noise. I will think D300 is better in terms of noise control than K10D and hence it is promising that D90 *may* do well in noise as compared to K20D.

QuoteQuote:
Do you have any test that it is faster in AF and more accurate? Also the movie mode is all but useless unless you are shooting something close to stationary because of the jello effect and limited to 5 minute movies. Again I am in the I'm happy movie modes are coming to SLR's camp but at the D90's capability I don't see much use for it. (SD MK II on the other hand).
I tried D300 in the zoo and there is NO comparison in terms of AF speed to K10D. It is dead quiet too. D90 won't be as fast but I have the speculation AF in D90 may be better than K20D. Burst rate at 4.5 shots per second is in D90 is a good indication that its AF is faster in continuous shooting.

QuoteQuote:
Also make sure you try out the D90's high iso settings before crowing it over the K20D.

Again if you were deciding between the camera and D700 it would be a totally different story. But I don't consider the D90 worth buying over a K20d or in your case even keeping the k10d until the k20d comes down more.
D700 is irrelevant in this discussion. It is not in the same class, you should know before suggesting others to compare it.

What you have discussed can mislead others to think that I crown D90 over K20D and I never said such a thing. But it is in our interest to learn about competition and see how well we compare to others.


Last edited by hinman; 10-01-2008 at 11:50 AM.
10-01-2008, 05:41 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by hinman Quote
I keep an open mind to all things. I think if I have no camera background and no preferences to a brand, the D90 still appeals to me as a middle-tier Nikon body that excels in areas in noise control, IQ, reasonable ergonomics, added movie that appeal to some and not others. Price wise, it is not much different than K20D as a body only consideration. Various discussions study D90 noise level very similar to Nikon D300. That alone attracts me as K10D don't serve me well in ISO800 and above. And I think K20D will do better in noise control but I can't tell if D90 is better than K20D in terms of noise. I will think D300 is better in terms of noise control than K10D and hence it is promising that D90 *may* do well in noise as compared to K20D.

I tried D300 in the zoo and there is NO comparison in terms of AF speed to K10D. It is dead quiet too. D90 won't be as fast but I have the speculation AF in D90 may be better than K20D. Burst rate at 4.5 shots per second is in D90 is a good indication that its AF is faster in continuous shooting.

D700 is irrelevant in this discussion. It is not in the same class, you should know before suggesting others to compare it.

What you have discussed can mislead others to think that I crown D90 over K20D and I never said such a thing. But it is in our interest to learn about competition and see how well we compare to others.
First, I mention the D700 since its the first Nikon I would choose over the K20D. I've been pondering a system change myself and after weighing in everything including price (I can afford the more expensive nikon lenses but its not about affording them). I didn't say that it was the same class nor did I say you should direct compare it's functions, Just simply, if you are going to pay more for a camera and a camera system. I do not see it being worth the jump until you hit the D700 level and i'm sure it vibes very well with your philosophy of getting the most out of the system with an actual self controlled budget.

BTW Burst rate gets to a point where its the shutter box and not the AF

What I'm getting at in the end is

With all your post you seem to be convinced already before the rest of the facts that you should get a D90. Obviously from reading your post in the past you are a guy that does your research before you buy things. You ask people their opinions about d90 vs k20d on a pentax forum. What do you expect? Pure stat analysis will prove the K20d measures up very well against the newer d90.

Unless you honestly think you will use movie mode (basically stationary camera shooting it) then why is it even a question? Regardless of the drawbacks of the mode that have been posted in almost every review out there you deem it important enough that you will still talk about it.

Other than that I see the noise being somewhat comparable and then the Nikon AF system being faster. With that you get more expensive lenses and a whole different system to deal with along with accessories and flashes if you use TTL.

So adding all that together + the fact that you are a guy who keeps his spending in check and uses your stuff to the fullest the obvious answer to this question posted in this thread would be you should stick with the k20d and pentax. If you haven't come to that conclusion even with all the facts strewn around the net then you should go with your heart and get the d90 and stop torturing yourself and get you camera and get back to what you do best. Take pictures

Last edited by Okami; 10-01-2008 at 05:47 PM.
10-01-2008, 05:51 PM   #51
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To laissezfaire

Wait till you get the 50-135 and see how much of a joy that lens is to use with your camera before thinking of upgrading to anything else.
10-01-2008, 07:17 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
To laissezfaire

Wait till you get the 50-135 and see how much of a joy that lens is to use with your camera before thinking of upgrading to anything else.

Okami, now that you mention about the DA*50-135 and k20d combo; my LBA and CBA is getting me... it is missing in my lineup.
10-01-2008, 07:40 PM   #53
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Response from one who has experience with both

This indeed an interesting thread, and I think requires an educated and unambiguous answer if possible.

I owned a K10D and some great lenses for over a year, and then 8 months ago switched to the Nikon D300.

Why?

I made this decision for only a few reasons, what kind of photography I like to do, and what was bugging me the most. These are the facts.

The ONLY reason the K10D was not my perfect camera was:
  • Mediocre to abyssmal Low Light Focus
  • Lack of useful Focus Assist
  • Slow Focus generally
  • Mediocre Flash AF-360 and 540 reliability
  • Availability of certain Lenses at the time

Has the D300 and the SB-800 Flash resolved these issues? Yes! 100% to MY Satisfaction, others may see it differently.

Do I miss the K10D? Yes, and the great Pentax SR, and FA31 LTD lens and others, and the feel and simplicity of it, of course.. it is a great camera no question.

Am I totally happy with the D300 and has it replaced ALL the things I miss about the K10D? Not a chance. The Nikkor lens costs are similar or slightly more than the Pentax branded lenses especially if you want the best or equal to the Limiteds and VR (=SR).
The D300 camera was/is a lot of work to learn and sometimes use as it has way more flexibility and user setup options available, but it does, like a Pentax does, a fine job if you use it as a tool, not a crutch.

What it all boils down to is, YOU make the decision based on what YOU NEED or WANT to do with the tool you are selecting, no sense buying a power drill if you have no electricity to plug it into, or a small car if you have 8 kids.

Hello to all my friends here on Pentax Forums, I do drop in and keep in touch now and then.

Phil aka Matix


Last edited by matix; 10-01-2008 at 11:06 PM.
10-01-2008, 09:37 PM   #54
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Some Die Hard Pentaxians who have never used other brands could never know..

.. That the Pentax system is actually lagging behind in technologies, performance and accuracy for the most important aspects for a *camera*, namely, AF, exposure for both ambient light and flash.

QuoteOriginally posted by matix Quote
This indeed an interesting thread, and I think requires an educated and unambiguos answer if possible.

I owned a K10D and some great lenses for over a year, and then 8 months ago switched to the Nikon D300.

Why?
I owned so many Pentax lenses, flashes and accessories. I was really forced to buy a Canon 5D 1.5 years ago.

WHY?

QuoteQuote:
I made this decision for only a few reasons, what kind of photography I like to do, and what was bugging me the most. These are the facts.

The ONLY reason the K10D was not my perfect camera was:
[*]Mediocre to abyssmal Low Light Focus
Yes. But my MZ cameras are far better! Why??

QuoteQuote:
[*]Lack of useful Focus Assist
This would not be a problem for me if the low light AF works. Just in case if really required, I would attach a flash (of course not a Pentax 200FGZ flashgun which has NO AF assist beam - really funny).

QuoteQuote:
[*]Slow Focus generally
Yes, not even mention the poor tracking and hit rate of the continuous AF.

QuoteQuote:
[*]Mediocre Flash AF-360 and 540 reliability
YES! This really something bugs me much - the poor accuracy and consistency of the P-TTL! Sometimes, it overexposes much and sometime it seems that there is nearly no flash! But most of the time, it underexposes (just to a different extent). Don't imagine to use bounce flash with those 360 and 540, it sucks most of the time.

The plain old Pentax centre-weighted average off-the-film TTL auto flash, on the other hand, is very accurate, reliable and consistent. I used my Pentax TTL auto flash on my *ist D and it did get excellent results, too.

In fact, my Canon E-TTL II combo is far better than my Pentax. But I have to admit that the Nikon flash system is EVEN more accurate!

QuoteQuote:
[*]Availability of certain Lenses at the time
True.

QuoteQuote:
Has the D300 and the SB-800 Flash resolved these issues? Yes! 100% to MY Satisfaction, others may see it differently.
For sure, for what I experienced for using a SB-800 on a D200!

QuoteQuote:
Do I miss the K10D? Yes, and the great Pentax SR, and FA31 LTD lens and others, and the feel and simplicity of it, of course.. it is a great camera no question.
Yes and No. I miss most of my FA/FA*/Limited lens but none of my DA/DFA lenses and neither for any of my Pentax DSLR bodies for the serious problems they have.

QuoteQuote:
The D300 camera was/is a lot of work to learn and sometimes use as it has way more flexibility and user setup options available, but it does, like a Pentax does, a fine job if you use it as a tool, not a crutch.
I think the user friendliness of the Nikons are particularly poor. But most Nikonians have used to its somehow strange and indirect/hidden operations.

QuoteQuote:
What it all boils down to is, YOU make the decision based on what YOU NEED or WANT to do with the tool you are selecting, no sense buying a power drill if you have no electricity to plug it into, or a small car if you have 8 kids.

Phil aka Matix
Right, absolutely right. Good, honest and helpful post, Phil ! My hat off!
10-01-2008, 11:14 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
.. That the Pentax system is actually lagging behind in technologies, performance and accuracy for the most important aspects for a *camera*, namely, AF, exposure for both ambient light and flash.
while it might be slower are you telling me a photog that knows his K20d would not be able to take as good pictures as one with a d300 because of the AF?

QuoteQuote:

I owned so many Pentax lenses, flashes and accessories. I was really forced to buy a Canon 5D 1.5 years ago.

WHY?
Which lenses did you own? I really want to know this. Forced to buy a canon 5d... thats an interesting one there. Show me one picture you have taken that actually mattered in the last 1.5 years that you would not have been able to take with a pentax camera

QuoteQuote:

This would not be a problem for me if the low light AF works. Just in case if really required, I would attach a flash (of course not a Pentax 200FGZ flashgun which has NO AF assist beam - really funny).

Yes, not even mention the poor tracking and hit rate of the continuous AF.

YES! This really something bugs me much - the poor accuracy and consistency of the P-TTL! Sometimes, it overexposes much and sometime it seems that there is nearly no flash! But most of the time, it underexposes (just to a different extent). Don't imagine to use bounce flash with those 360 and 540, it sucks most of the time.

The plain old Pentax centre-weighted average off-the-film TTL auto flash, on the other hand, is very accurate, reliable and consistent. I used my Pentax TTL auto flash on my *ist D and it did get excellent results, too.

In fact, my Canon E-TTL II combo is far better than my Pentax. But I have to admit that the Nikon flash system is EVEN more accurate!
Are you reallllyyyy dissing the Pentax flash system by comparing your Canon one?.... Have you seen the price for lowest level canon flash that has wireless? Which Pentax flash did you use back then anyways? and which Canon one are you comparing it to now.

QuoteQuote:

For sure, for what I experienced for using a SB-800 on a D200!
When did you experience this? and yeah i agree Nikon's flash system is very nice but their SB800 back then must have also been around 400-500$ But Hands down Nikon has the best flash system

QuoteQuote:

Yes and No. I miss most of my FA/FA*/Limited lens but none of my DA/DFA lenses and neither for any of my Pentax DSLR bodies for the serious problems they have.
Again... what was your equipment exactly... Only thing I know you have owned was a K100d

QuoteQuote:

I think the user friendliness of the Nikons are particularly poor. But most Nikonians have used to its somehow strange and indirect/hidden operations.
Actually i've heard and used (friend i shoot with has a d3) Nikons have some of the best ergonomics and user friendly cameras in the biz .

BTW how much did your 5d cost when you bought it. And are the k100d and 5d the only cameras you have ever owned?

Last edited by Okami; 10-01-2008 at 11:36 PM.
10-02-2008, 12:29 AM   #56
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Fact: There are significant differences - Nothing about Costs!

QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
while it might be slower are you telling me a photog that knows his K20d would not be able to take as good pictures as one with a d300 because of the AF?
Yes, for sure. When the K20D is still hunting at indoor or for a fast moving object which the D300 can catch and so on. What do you expect for "as good" a picture when it comes out to be OOF?

QuoteQuote:
Which lenses did you own? I really want to know this. Forced to buy a canon 5d... thats an interesting one there. Show me one picture you have taken that actually mattered in the last 1.5 years that you would not have been able to take with a pentax camera
See my profile. I can't show you any picture as they are numerous. My Canon usually produces pictures with proper exposures (ambient light), higher resolution, better defined jpegs, better colour balance, a far more higher in-focus hit rate no matter for static objects indoor and moving objects anywhere and so on! Do you want me to share you my whole photo album in the last 1.5 years??

QuoteQuote:
Are you reallllyyyy dissing the Pentax flash system by comparing your Canon one?.... Have you seen the price for lowest level canon flash that has wireless? Which Pentax flash did you use back then anyways? and which Canon one are you comparing it to now.
No one talks about the price, not Phil nor me. We are sharing on how and why the Pentax and Nikon/Canon systems are different.

Anyway, I would be glad to compare similar priced Pentax gear to the Nikon and Canon, but there is NONE!

QuoteQuote:
When did you experience this? and yeah i agree Nikon's flash system is very nice but their SB800 back then must have also been around 400-500$ But Hands down Nikon has the best flash system
Don't lead to the price discussion here again. It is irrelevant. The only concern here is if the camera system peforms or NOT performing and meeting the users' requirements or NOT. Nothing else!

QuoteQuote:
Again... what was your equipment exactly... Only thing I know you have owned was a K100d
I owned a *ist D and DS and still now a K100. I have used a K10D extensively (just like I used the D200 which two friends of mine have them) and tried the K20 and K200 for many times. I have used both 360 and 540 also. What I can sure to tell is the 360 is a good flash only if it is in TTL Auto or external Auto mode! I think I am more than eligible enough than anyone who have owned only a few Pentax equipment and then ignore all others who have used 2 or 3 or even more DSLR systems and then make the comments on the differences.

QuoteQuote:
Actually i've heard and used (friend i shoot with has a d3) Nikons have some of the best ergonomics and user friendly cameras in the biz .
The Nikon operations are not straight forward and can be used without reading manual / by common sense. The Pentax and Canon ones are NOT that case. Thats called user-friendliness in my book.

QuoteQuote:
BTW how much did your 5d cost when you bought it. And are the k100d and 5d the only cameras you have ever owned?
Who talks about the cost? Why it must be taken into account when cameras perform and some others don't and will never be?

Read my profile again. And, I have owned 3 Pentax AFSLR bodies and 3 Pentax DSLR bodies and now a Canon 5D. I have used in the field for two D200 and a K10D for long. This year, I have tried the K20D and K200D at least for 3 times each, both indoor and outdoors, I won't change any of my comments on the inferior AF system and hunting, poor exposure accuracy and consistency for both ambient light and flash. There is not much difference afterall.

I won't expect you could accept the fact. However, for anyone who just don't want to see only one comment and judgment from me, one can read my blog for further reference where there are all other unsatisfied Pentax users' feedbacks and reported cases on such inferior exposure, flash and AF systems and how they missed their photo chances just because of these.

Bottom line: There is no better Pentax equipment in the Pentax land above the K20D, which, as you repeatedly stated, is now far more cheap than the other bodies: I can now buy a brand new K20D at the same price of the Canon 450D in Hong Kong - enough said. So, finally I have to agree with you on one point that you remind us: when we *have to* compare lowest priced DSLR gear to higher and highest one from other brands, it is something that really absurd. (But why "have to"??)

Last edited by RiceHigh; 10-02-2008 at 12:37 AM.
10-02-2008, 01:31 PM   #57
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This back and forth discussions are tedious.

But there is the point again:
"...while it might be slower are you telling me a photog that knows his K20d would not be able to take as good pictures as one with a d300 because of the AF?"

Your suggestion is right, Okami. RH almost hijacked the thread again, which is really annoying. But it is hard not to counter his NONPHOTOGRAPHER arguments. Noone is hindered to take great photos because of a somewhat slower AF (sports and stuff notwithstanding). It takes more time to focus with a manual focus SLR or a even a rangefinder than with a modern AF camera - usually. But there is a very intimate dedication involved in focussing. Selecting the point of focus and sometimes waiting for the AF to lock and meanwhile (even indirectly) observing the subject and scanning the scene establishes a connection. The same is true with a rangefinder. While you focus your brain does more than just matching the rf-patch's overlay. There is more going on. You lose this connection with instant AF not caring about the frame, what is inside and what is not.

But whom I am talking to? I am sure RH hast got no idea what i am talking about.

However, I am not trying to find excuses for a slow AF Pentax-wise. Which btw isn't that bad as some are stating here. I am trying to explain that there is some magig going on looking through the finder, and that a splitsecond more doesn't "cost" you anything but gives you more feeling for the final framing.
10-02-2008, 05:47 PM   #58
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So, why still use and need AF?

Well, if your "argument" is valid, why do we need and use AF? Why not just install Katzeye and do MF.

I don't mind to tell you that my first camera is a rangefinder, with the overlay focusing aid you mentioned. I have been a photographer for more 30 years now. I have used all types of cameras and almost every Japanese brand. I managed to shoot with a full manual SLR without any batteries and metering by my eyes and doing all the MFs and shot sports more than two decades ago (I used the Ricoh XR-1 and Nikon FM2)! But then whats the "point" of suggesting about MF when the AF of Pentax won't do his job well? Why NOT a MF Pentax DSLR then??


QuoteOriginally posted by ratjadi Quote
This back and forth discussions are tedious.

But there is the point again:
"...while it might be slower are you telling me a photog that knows his K20d would not be able to take as good pictures as one with a d300 because of the AF?"

Your suggestion is right, Okami. RH almost hijacked the thread again, which is really annoying. But it is hard not to counter his NONPHOTOGRAPHER arguments. Noone is hindered to take great photos because of a somewhat slower AF (sports and stuff notwithstanding). It takes more time to focus with a manual focus SLR or a even a rangefinder than with a modern AF camera - usually. But there is a very intimate dedication involved in focussing. Selecting the point of focus and sometimes waiting for the AF to lock and meanwhile (even indirectly) observing the subject and scanning the scene establishes a connection. The same is true with a rangefinder. While you focus your brain does more than just matching the rf-patch's overlay. There is more going on. You lose this connection with instant AF not caring about the frame, what is inside and what is not.

But whom I am talking to? I am sure RH hast got no idea what i am talking about.

However, I am not trying to find excuses for a slow AF Pentax-wise. Which btw isn't that bad as some are stating here. I am trying to explain that there is some magig going on looking through the finder, and that a splitsecond more doesn't "cost" you anything but gives you more feeling for the final framing.
10-09-2008, 08:34 AM   #59
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"Most Underrated camera on the market"

Hi, I'm new to the forums and felt the need to chime in on this subject after a recent visit to a Ritz Camera store in my area.

I don't doubt that many salesmen at stores like Ritz would usually suggest buying a Nikon or Canon over Pentax, but that's not the experience I had at all.

I was talking to the guy at Ritz about the K20D vs. the D80 and D90 and he strongly recommended the K20 over both of the Nikons. In fact, he said the K20D is "the most underrated camera in the market." He also talked about the superior low light performance--specifically compared to the D80.

Not that I'm only gonna take this guy's word, but it was good to hear a salesperson at a chain camera store have such good things to say about a Pentax.
10-09-2008, 08:42 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by MidwestMax Quote
Hi, I'm new to the forums and felt the need to chime in on this subject after a recent visit to a Ritz Camera store in my area.

I don't doubt that many salesmen at stores like Ritz would usually suggest buying a Nikon or Canon over Pentax, but that's not the experience I had at all.

I was talking to the guy at Ritz about the K20D vs. the D80 and D90 and he strongly recommended the K20 over both of the Nikons. In fact, he said the K20D is "the most underrated camera in the market." He also talked about the superior low light performance--specifically compared to the D80.

Not that I'm only gonna take this guy's word, but it was good to hear a salesperson at a chain camera store have such good things to say about a Pentax.
I was thinking of moving back to one of the other manufacturers for my low light needs (the K200D can't do it) but after carefully looking at the K20D and my bank account, it was concluded between my ego and my bank account that the K20D was the right decision. It would be in my case stupid to have 2x35mm systems vs 2 bodies and 1 set of lenses (so as my 35mm is fully covered now by Pentax, i can call myself a Pentaxian ...lol
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