Wish for a 4:3 or 5:4 sensor

biz-engineer · 02-07-2019, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by sundown

The New Panasonic S1R, being 47 MP, will have a 4:3 crop, which I find quite interesting and 47Mps should be fine when you crop.

Can I mount my 6 pentax lenses on the S1R?

---------- Post added 07-02-19 at 09:30 ----------

Originally posted by kypfer

The 3:2 and 4:3 ratios are very historical, they reflect the "half-plate" and "quarter-plate" sizes of glass plates and cut film from before the days of roll-film.

Thanks for this insight. Very interesting. As of today, I'd be more interested in the composition side of things.

sundown · 02-07-2019, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Can I mount my 6 pentax lenses on the S1R?

Yes, you can, with adapters and at a cost of loss of functionality

MJKoski · 02-07-2019, 02:39 AM - **1 Like**

3:2 is indeed bad format. It is not wide enough for panoramic shots or tall enough to get tall forest/mountain/architecture scenes in one shot with moderate-to-normal wide angle lenses. 5:4 or 1:1 is the proper format. 150mm lens ('normal') mounted on my 4x5" camera feels like a moderate wide angle compared to crippled and boring 50mm 3:2 FF format.

**Rondec** · 02-07-2019, 03:50 AM

Probably the issue is primarily historical in that 35mm cameras had 3:2 ratios. At this point, I suppose Pentax could call Sony up and ask them for a different crop, but they would probably pay more for that sensor as it wouldn't be one that was just available off the shelf.

The most likely solution is that future cameras will add additional crops that can be highlighted in the viewfinder.

At the same time, we do have it easy now and it isn't that hard to do a little crop in Lightroom to get the aspect ratio you want, provided you shoot wide enough to begin with.

**UncleVanya** · 02-07-2019, 05:51 AM - **1 Like**

@biz-engineer
The crop marking comments made by photoptimist were that it would be nice if the other ratios were there. It was easy to misread.

You aren't missing out on an obscure feature, it isn't there.

biz-engineer · 02-07-2019, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by MJKoski

3:2 is indeed bad format. It is not wide enough for panoramic shots or tall enough to get tall forest/mountain/architecture scenes in one shot with moderate-to-normal wide angle lenses. 5:4 or 1:1 is the proper format. 150mm lens ('normal') mounted on my 4x5" camera feels like a moderate wide angle compared to crippled and boring 50mm 3:2 FF format.

Well, 5:4 is best for vertical shots, but not so much for panoramic shots. So ideally, two cameras with two different aspects ratios are needed: one best suited for panos and one for vertical shots. 3:2 is neither of them but good as single camera compromise. Of course you could take advantage of a 5:4 sensor for single vertical or horizontal shots, and pan it horizontally for landscape panorama. Two different ways of looking at it.

photoptimist · 02-07-2019, 07:03 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by UncleVanya

@biz-engineer
The crop marking comments made by photoptimist were that it would be nice if the other ratios were there. It was easy to misread.

You aren't missing out on an obscure feature, it isn't there.

Exactly! Currently the camera only has crop modes and OVF frame lines for FF, APS-C, and 1:1. I'd like more.

P.S. I edited my post to clarify the current versus wished-for functionality.

MJKoski · 02-07-2019, 07:29 AM

I remember Canon 1Ds3 had a good amount of crop markings to select from. Even exotic 6:7 ratio. They would be shown in viewfinder then.

biz-engineer · 02-07-2019, 08:39 AM

At least, cropped frames in live view doesn't look so hard to implement. There are 4 possible grip select-able in the K1, but I haven't been able how to make use of them. I tried to figure what Pentax engineers have been thinking when they implemented those grids but I failed.

tuco · 02-07-2019, 09:34 AM - **1 Like**

And if you had a 4:3 camera you'd want a 3:2.

I shoot all kinds of aspect ratios as you can see in my signature. 1:1, 5:4 (the actual ratio on a Pentax 6x7), 3:2 and 3:1. One thing I've discovered is you can shoot 4:3 and 5:4 with your digital camera that is 3:2. That's right, you can crop. And you don't need to actually see the scene in 4:3 to shoot those compositions. You can train your eye to see a more square compositions in a wider frame. I reach for my 6x9 over my 6x7 more often because of the aspect ratio. YMMV of course.

Wheatfield · 02-07-2019, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Leumas

I've come to realize that 3:2 is a terrible ratio for most things for me. For almost everything from landscape to portraiture I find myself cropping to a 4:3 or 5:4 ratio. 3:2 is just not very pleasing to the eye from a composition standpoint.
As such I really hope they decide to release a native FF sensor in either 4:3 or 5:4. This would provide a much higher and usable resolution in many cases.

Anyone else desire such a thing?

Nope. I’ve learned to crop my images to fit the final purpose.
Also, you are wrong about a 4:3 or 5:4 sensor providing higher usable resolution.

normhead · 02-07-2019, 10:06 AM

When I want 4x5 or 3x4 or a custom crop I just make it that way. These days, producing slide shows for my 19:9 TV, almost everything I do is cropped to 16:9, and the surprise is, especially with landscapes, many image look better that way.

Modern sensors are such high resolution, just crop for what you want. What's the issue?

---------- Post added 02-07-19 at 12:08 PM ----------

Originally posted by sundown

Yes, you can, with adapters and at a cost of loss of functionality

And why would folks put up with those restrictions if they don't have to?

biz-engineer · 02-07-2019, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by tuco

And you don't need to actually see the scene in 4:3 to shoot those compositions.

How to you adjust the photographic view point relative to 5:4 or 4:3 frame diagonal?
How do you crop the 3:2 frame to 4:3 when making composition hors-champs (or hors-cadre)?
Something to learn here?

tuco · 02-07-2019, 11:54 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

How to you adjust the photographic view point relative to 5:4 or 4:3 frame diagonal?
How do you crop the 3:2 frame to 4:3 when making composition hors-champs (or hors-cadre)?
Something to learn here?

I do it like this. When I see a scene that would look great in say another aspect than the camera is shooting, I frame it accordingly so when I crop 1:1 as in this example it comes out like I expect. And I even get a little wiggle room for framing the composition.

So if I had to have a 1:1 camera to take this picture what should I do? Should I stand there and curse myself for not bring along another camera? Should I consider running home and get one and come back? Do I say f* it I'm screwed I can't take this picture? And also do I say, crap, I don't have a BW sensor camera either. What do I do now?

An ideal sensor would be round, I think.

biz-engineer · 02-07-2019, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by tuco

An ideal sensor would be round, I think.

You mean you rotate the image prior to cropping?

For the 1:1, no issue at all, the K1 has 1:1 frame available in ovf and live view. The difficulty I have is if I want a 5:4 ratio and have the image framed in relation to the diagonal of the frame? How do I do it with a 3:2 frame?

02-07-2019, 09:34 AM - 1 Like	#25
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	And if you had a 4:3 camera you'd want a 3:2. I shoot all kinds of aspect ratios as you can see in my signature. 1:1, 5:4 (the actual ratio on a Pentax 6x7), 3:2 and 3:1. One thing I've discovered is you can shoot 4:3 and 5:4 with your digital camera that is 3:2. That's right, you can crop. And you don't need to actually see the scene in 4:3 to shoot those compositions. You can train your eye to see a more square compositions in a wider frame. I reach for my 6x9 over my 6x7 more often because of the aspect ratio. YMMV of course. Last edited by tuco; 02-07-2019 at 10:24 AM.

02-07-2019, 11:15 AM	#28
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by tuco And you don't need to actually see the scene in 4:3 to shoot those compositions. How to you adjust the photographic view point relative to 5:4 or 4:3 frame diagonal? How do you crop the 3:2 frame to 4:3 when making composition hors-champs (or hors-cadre)? Something to learn here? Last edited by biz-engineer; 02-07-2019 at 11:26 AM.

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02-07-2019, 01:29 AM	#16
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by sundown The New Panasonic S1R, being 47 MP, will have a 4:3 crop, which I find quite interesting and 47Mps should be fine when you crop. Can I mount my 6 pentax lenses on the S1R? ---------- Post added 07-02-19 at 09:30 ---------- Originally posted by kypfer The 3:2 and 4:3 ratios are very historical, they reflect the "half-plate" and "quarter-plate" sizes of glass plates and cut film from before the days of roll-film. Thanks for this insight. Very interesting. As of today, I'd be more interested in the composition side of things.

02-07-2019, 01:37 AM	#17
sundown Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 588	Originally posted by biz-engineer Can I mount my 6 pentax lenses on the S1R? Yes, you can, with adapters and at a cost of loss of functionality

02-07-2019, 02:39 AM - 1 Like	#18
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	3:2 is indeed bad format. It is not wide enough for panoramic shots or tall enough to get tall forest/mountain/architecture scenes in one shot with moderate-to-normal wide angle lenses. 5:4 or 1:1 is the proper format. 150mm lens ('normal') mounted on my 4x5" camera feels like a moderate wide angle compared to crippled and boring 50mm 3:2 FF format.

02-07-2019, 03:50 AM	#19
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Probably the issue is primarily historical in that 35mm cameras had 3:2 ratios. At this point, I suppose Pentax could call Sony up and ask them for a different crop, but they would probably pay more for that sensor as it wouldn't be one that was just available off the shelf. The most likely solution is that future cameras will add additional crops that can be highlighted in the viewfinder. At the same time, we do have it easy now and it isn't that hard to do a little crop in Lightroom to get the aspect ratio you want, provided you shoot wide enough to begin with.

02-07-2019, 05:51 AM - 1 Like	#20
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,404	@biz-engineer The crop marking comments made by photoptimist were that it would be nice if the other ratios were there. It was easy to misread. You aren't missing out on an obscure feature, it isn't there.

02-07-2019, 06:19 AM	#21
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by MJKoski 3:2 is indeed bad format. It is not wide enough for panoramic shots or tall enough to get tall forest/mountain/architecture scenes in one shot with moderate-to-normal wide angle lenses. 5:4 or 1:1 is the proper format. 150mm lens ('normal') mounted on my 4x5" camera feels like a moderate wide angle compared to crippled and boring 50mm 3:2 FF format. Well, 5:4 is best for vertical shots, but not so much for panoramic shots. So ideally, two cameras with two different aspects ratios are needed: one best suited for panos and one for vertical shots. 3:2 is neither of them but good as single camera compromise. Of course you could take advantage of a 5:4 sensor for single vertical or horizontal shots, and pan it horizontally for landscape panorama. Two different ways of looking at it.

02-07-2019, 07:03 AM - 1 Like	#22
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,126	Originally posted by UncleVanya @biz-engineer The crop marking comments made by photoptimist were that it would be nice if the other ratios were there. It was easy to misread. You aren't missing out on an obscure feature, it isn't there. Exactly! Currently the camera only has crop modes and OVF frame lines for FF, APS-C, and 1:1. I'd like more. P.S. I edited my post to clarify the current versus wished-for functionality.

02-07-2019, 07:29 AM	#23
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	I remember Canon 1Ds3 had a good amount of crop markings to select from. Even exotic 6:7 ratio. They would be shown in viewfinder then.

02-07-2019, 08:39 AM	#24
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	At least, cropped frames in live view doesn't look so hard to implement. There are 4 possible grip select-able in the K1, but I haven't been able how to make use of them. I tried to figure what Pentax engineers have been thinking when they implemented those grids but I failed.

02-07-2019, 10:00 AM	#26
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by Leumas I've come to realize that 3:2 is a terrible ratio for most things for me. For almost everything from landscape to portraiture I find myself cropping to a 4:3 or 5:4 ratio. 3:2 is just not very pleasing to the eye from a composition standpoint. As such I really hope they decide to release a native FF sensor in either 4:3 or 5:4. This would provide a much higher and usable resolution in many cases. Anyone else desire such a thing? Nope. I’ve learned to crop my images to fit the final purpose. Also, you are wrong about a 4:3 or 5:4 sensor providing higher usable resolution.

02-07-2019, 10:06 AM	#27
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	When I want 4x5 or 3x4 or a custom crop I just make it that way. These days, producing slide shows for my 19:9 TV, almost everything I do is cropped to 16:9, and the surprise is, especially with landscapes, many image look better that way. Modern sensors are such high resolution, just crop for what you want. What's the issue? ---------- Post added 02-07-19 at 12:08 PM ---------- Originally posted by sundown Yes, you can, with adapters and at a cost of loss of functionality And why would folks put up with those restrictions if they don't have to?

02-07-2019, 11:54 AM - 2 Likes	#29
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	Originally posted by biz-engineer How to you adjust the photographic view point relative to 5:4 or 4:3 frame diagonal? How do you crop the 3:2 frame to 4:3 when making composition hors-champs (or hors-cadre)? Something to learn here? I do it like this. When I see a scene that would look great in say another aspect than the camera is shooting, I frame it accordingly so when I crop 1:1 as in this example it comes out like I expect. And I even get a little wiggle room for framing the composition. So if I had to have a 1:1 camera to take this picture what should I do? Should I stand there and curse myself for not bring along another camera? Should I consider running home and get one and come back? Do I say f* it I'm screwed I can't take this picture? And also do I say, crap, I don't have a BW sensor camera either. What do I do now? An ideal sensor would be round, I think.

02-07-2019, 12:01 PM	#30
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by tuco An ideal sensor would be round, I think. You mean you rotate the image prior to cropping? For the 1:1, no issue at all, the K1 has 1:1 frame available in ovf and live view. The difficulty I have is if I want a 5:4 ratio and have the image framed in relation to the diagonal of the frame? How do I do it with a 3:2 frame?