Could this shot have been achieved without HDR?

robert · 04-24-2019, 06:16 PM

I've been messing around with my K5iis and bracketed 3 shot HDR in lightroom. Could this shot have been achieved with just one shot?

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**SteveinSLC** · 04-24-2019, 06:40 PM

Hard to say for sure, and probably depends on which camera.
My K-1 has great dynamic range, and an impressive ability to recover detail from shadows in Lightroom. I'd guess I could replicate that without HDR.

torashi · 04-24-2019, 06:40 PM - **1 Like**

1. If you used a really strong inverse grad ND perhaps.

2. Shooting raw and exposing for the highlights. In Lightroom you can use exposure gradients and adjust to taste. Automatic HDR has gotten better, but you should try out manual blending of layered pictures in PS.

3. You could also try negative film.

Adam · 04-24-2019, 07:40 PM - **1 Like**

I would say probably yes, given the fact that the shadows are still kind of dark. You'd have to do the raw processing manually, but you'd be surprised how big the dynamic range is from modern sensors

Adam
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**pentageek** · 04-24-2019, 10:40 PM

I haven't used K5, so I can't tell for sure, but I'd say yes, shadow recovery should yield at least acceptable results.

**BarryE** · 04-25-2019, 12:49 AM

Nice mood to the shot - a hard to resist capture.

HDR or not? Definite, maybe. As others have said having taken the bracketed set, a manual blend would be my preferred option over HDR. Maybe a wider range of bracketed exposures, next time.

A quick manual blend with this shot would leave the tree mostly silhouetted, but the row of trees could be picked out as they are mostly against a darker region of sky. Then the foreground could be selectively allowed to graduate off to help give a more 3D effect - subtly is something HDR struggles with.

HDR does not give the fine control that a blend gives, which, for me, means I never consider HDR. Same goes for graduated filters - with modern sensors, they are mostly redundant, whatever the advertising says.

**clackers** · 04-25-2019, 01:27 AM

Yeah, the trees in the background and the one in the front are basically silhouettes, Robert.

When all's said and done, you've exposed for the sky.

**Rondec** · 04-25-2019, 02:34 AM

Yes.

At iso 80 the K5 has a huge amount of dynamic range -- quite a bit more than you show here. The big thing, as Clackers says, is to shoot low iso and make sure you don't blow any highlights. After that, you can bump your shadows at least three stops in post without having a bunch of noise come in.

Not a Number · 04-25-2019, 04:02 AM

Yes, I've seen shots similar to this taken on Kodachrome slide film

normhead · 04-25-2019, 05:54 AM - **2 Likes**

I quit using HDR with my K-5. I saw no significant improvement. Back using my *ist it was areal thing, although I always used photoshop layers to achieve the effect, not the built in camera one.

The built in camera for me was un-impressive, although, I haven't tried it for years.

The 15 EV DR of a K-1 probably gives you more latitude than my K20D with HDR enabled.

My K-1 is rated by DxO at 14.6 EV DR my K20D at 11.1.
You need to cover 1.5 stops in your dynamic range settings, so 3 images 1.5 stops apart, to match what you can do with a K-1 without HDR.

This is not HDR, do you care?

The DR of modern sensors makes HDR mostly redundant in my opinion.

**MossyRocks** · 04-25-2019, 06:29 AM - **1 Like**

I think you probably could have

I didn't think LIghtroom supported the HDR raw from Pentax cameras (I have never been able to get it to work) but I could be totally wrong and if so would love it if someone could point me in the right direction there. That image looks similar to how I shoot sunsets and get similar results, even the EXIF looks similar to how I shoot them. I will usually do a -2EV at ISO 100 on my K-3. I don't do a lot of editing as I'm still not very good at it and really try to get things to what I think of as right in camera (I shoot lots of 5 bracket shots at .7EV to 1.3EV steps now). For example here is a shot I did up at my lake last year at a -2EV shortly after the sun had dropped below the horizon:

It is darker than yours but then it was shot at -2EV instead of the -1.3EV yours was shot at. I know clackers is right about being able to pull up the shadows as I believe he suggested a similar edit to my image above but in this image all one gets is the mostly leafless tree branches, and dead cattails that don't look good so I just left them hidden after pulling them up to see what was there. This was also a multi second shot at ISO 100 and f/11 using the S-M-C 17mm fisheye takumar.

normhead · 04-25-2019, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by MossyRocks

I think you probably could have

I didn't think LIghtroom supported the HDR raw from Pentax cameras (I have never been able to get it to work) but I could be totally wrong and if so would love it if someone could point me in the right direction there. That image looks similar to how I shoot sunsets and get similar results, even the EXIF looks similar to how I shoot them. I will usually do a -2EV at ISO 100 on my K-3. I don't do a lot of editing as I'm still not very good at it and really try to get things to what I think of as right in camera (I shoot lots of 5 bracket shots at .7EV to 1.3EV steps now). For example here is a shot I did up at my lake last year at a -2EV shortly after the sun had dropped below the horizon:

It is darker than yours but then it was shot at -2EV instead of the -1.3EV yours was shot at. I know clackers is right about being able to pull up the shadows as I believe he suggested a similar edit to my image above but in this image all one gets is the mostly leafless tree branches, and dead cattails that don't look good so I just left them hidden after pulling them up to see what was there. This was also a multi second shot at ISO 100 and f/11 using the S-M-C 17mm fisheye takumar.

IN the above image, I often bracket 5 stops five images, and choose the best exposure. The one above would have been one of the ones I tossed. -2EV was too dark for that image.

Bunch · 04-25-2019, 06:53 AM

Nah, Mossy Oaks, that didn't turn out bad at all. The way the trees are silhouetted in your photo make a much more interesting photo than just the washed out trees in Norm's photo that are supposedly more properly exposed.

robert · 04-25-2019, 10:09 AM

Actually I bracketed 3 shots and merged in Lightroom not in camera

**MossyRocks** · 04-25-2019, 10:23 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Bunch

The way the trees are silhouetted in your photo make a much more interesting photo than just the washed out trees in Norm's photo that are supposedly more properly exposed.

I think it comes down to personal preference, and even then the colors in the shadows of Normhead's photo don't look washed out but more muted as they are in the shadows with some very low diffuse light so they seem reasonable. Personally I like darker pictures more, especially sunset ones as you get really rich colors in the sky At the time I took that photo I wasn't bracketing shots and if presented with a similar shot again I would bracket them now. The settings I would probably go with would be a 5 bracketed shots centered at -.7 EV with .7 EV steps. When shot like that I would also look into using something like EnfuseGUI to blend/merge the images just to see what comes out of it as well as picking the single shot I liked best. If I didn't like either of the previous options I still have a 5 shot set that I could go and do HDR with Photoshop or some other software to see if that works out. I've kept tinkering with making HDR images and haven't hand any that don't seem to go sideways but I think I am to blame for that.

04-24-2019, 06:40 PM - 1 Like	#3
torashi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Medellín Posts: 1,322	1. If you used a really strong inverse grad ND perhaps. 2. Shooting raw and exposing for the highlights. In Lightroom you can use exposure gradients and adjust to taste. Automatic HDR has gotten better, but you should try out manual blending of layered pictures in PS. 3. You could also try negative film. Last edited by torashi; 04-24-2019 at 06:46 PM.

04-25-2019, 05:54 AM - 2 Likes	#10
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	I quit using HDR with my K-5. I saw no significant improvement. Back using my ist it was areal thing, although I always used photoshop layers to achieve the effect, not the built in camera one. The built in camera for me was un-impressive, although, I haven't tried it for years. The 15 EV DR of a K-1 probably gives you more latitude than my K20D with HDR enabled. My K-1 is rated by DxO at 14.6 EV DR my K20D at 11.1. You need to cover 1.5 stops in your dynamic range settings, so 3 images 1.5 stops apart, to match what you can do with a K-1 without HDR. This is not HDR, do you care? The DR of modern sensors makes HDR mostly redundant in my opinion. Last edited by normhead; 04-25-2019 at 06:08 AM.*

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04-24-2019, 06:40 PM	#2
SteveinSLC Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 568	Hard to say for sure, and probably depends on which camera. My K-1 has great dynamic range, and an impressive ability to recover detail from shadows in Lightroom. I'd guess I could replicate that without HDR.

04-24-2019, 07:40 PM - 1 Like	#4
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	I would say probably yes, given the fact that the shadows are still kind of dark. You'd have to do the raw processing manually, but you'd be surprised how big the dynamic range is from modern sensors Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

04-24-2019, 10:40 PM	#5
pentageek Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 420	I haven't used K5, so I can't tell for sure, but I'd say yes, shadow recovery should yield at least acceptable results.

04-25-2019, 12:49 AM	#6
BarryE Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,653	Nice mood to the shot - a hard to resist capture. HDR or not? Definite, maybe. As others have said having taken the bracketed set, a manual blend would be my preferred option over HDR. Maybe a wider range of bracketed exposures, next time. A quick manual blend with this shot would leave the tree mostly silhouetted, but the row of trees could be picked out as they are mostly against a darker region of sky. Then the foreground could be selectively allowed to graduate off to help give a more 3D effect - subtly is something HDR struggles with. HDR does not give the fine control that a blend gives, which, for me, means I never consider HDR. Same goes for graduated filters - with modern sensors, they are mostly redundant, whatever the advertising says.

04-25-2019, 01:27 AM	#7
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Yeah, the trees in the background and the one in the front are basically silhouettes, Robert. When all's said and done, you've exposed for the sky.

04-25-2019, 02:34 AM	#8
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Yes. At iso 80 the K5 has a huge amount of dynamic range -- quite a bit more than you show here. The big thing, as Clackers says, is to shoot low iso and make sure you don't blow any highlights. After that, you can bump your shadows at least three stops in post without having a bunch of noise come in.

04-25-2019, 04:02 AM	#9
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Yes, I've seen shots similar to this taken on Kodachrome slide film

04-25-2019, 06:29 AM - 1 Like	#11
MossyRocks Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,982	I think you probably could have I didn't think LIghtroom supported the HDR raw from Pentax cameras (I have never been able to get it to work) but I could be totally wrong and if so would love it if someone could point me in the right direction there. That image looks similar to how I shoot sunsets and get similar results, even the EXIF looks similar to how I shoot them. I will usually do a -2EV at ISO 100 on my K-3. I don't do a lot of editing as I'm still not very good at it and really try to get things to what I think of as right in camera (I shoot lots of 5 bracket shots at .7EV to 1.3EV steps now). For example here is a shot I did up at my lake last year at a -2EV shortly after the sun had dropped below the horizon: It is darker than yours but then it was shot at -2EV instead of the -1.3EV yours was shot at. I know clackers is right about being able to pull up the shadows as I believe he suggested a similar edit to my image above but in this image all one gets is the mostly leafless tree branches, and dead cattails that don't look good so I just left them hidden after pulling them up to see what was there. This was also a multi second shot at ISO 100 and f/11 using the S-M-C 17mm fisheye takumar.

04-25-2019, 06:35 AM	#12
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by MossyRocks I think you probably could have I didn't think LIghtroom supported the HDR raw from Pentax cameras (I have never been able to get it to work) but I could be totally wrong and if so would love it if someone could point me in the right direction there. That image looks similar to how I shoot sunsets and get similar results, even the EXIF looks similar to how I shoot them. I will usually do a -2EV at ISO 100 on my K-3. I don't do a lot of editing as I'm still not very good at it and really try to get things to what I think of as right in camera (I shoot lots of 5 bracket shots at .7EV to 1.3EV steps now). For example here is a shot I did up at my lake last year at a -2EV shortly after the sun had dropped below the horizon: It is darker than yours but then it was shot at -2EV instead of the -1.3EV yours was shot at. I know clackers is right about being able to pull up the shadows as I believe he suggested a similar edit to my image above but in this image all one gets is the mostly leafless tree branches, and dead cattails that don't look good so I just left them hidden after pulling them up to see what was there. This was also a multi second shot at ISO 100 and f/11 using the S-M-C 17mm fisheye takumar. IN the above image, I often bracket 5 stops five images, and choose the best exposure. The one above would have been one of the ones I tossed. -2EV was too dark for that image.

04-25-2019, 06:53 AM	#13
Bunch Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 283	Nah, Mossy Oaks, that didn't turn out bad at all. The way the trees are silhouetted in your photo make a much more interesting photo than just the washed out trees in Norm's photo that are supposedly more properly exposed.

04-25-2019, 10:09 AM	#14
robert Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: ohio Posts: 336 Original Poster	Actually I bracketed 3 shots and merged in Lightroom not in camera

04-25-2019, 10:23 AM - 1 Like	#15
MossyRocks Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,982	Originally posted by Bunch The way the trees are silhouetted in your photo make a much more interesting photo than just the washed out trees in Norm's photo that are supposedly more properly exposed. I think it comes down to personal preference, and even then the colors in the shadows of Normhead's photo don't look washed out but more muted as they are in the shadows with some very low diffuse light so they seem reasonable. Personally I like darker pictures more, especially sunset ones as you get really rich colors in the sky At the time I took that photo I wasn't bracketing shots and if presented with a similar shot again I would bracket them now. The settings I would probably go with would be a 5 bracketed shots centered at -.7 EV with .7 EV steps. When shot like that I would also look into using something like EnfuseGUI to blend/merge the images just to see what comes out of it as well as picking the single shot I liked best. If I didn't like either of the previous options I still have a 5 shot set that I could go and do HDR with Photoshop or some other software to see if that works out. I've kept tinkering with making HDR images and haven't hand any that don't seem to go sideways but I think I am to blame for that.