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05-07-2019, 10:51 PM - 2 Likes   #121
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As a Pentaxian...if my recent acquisition of a new 645z with the 28-45mm lens...and north of $10,000 USD and having a serious problem being not turning off...I've got to wonder about those that complain or think an entire company is bad based on a small-sample sized problem.

Then again...I *do* call myself a Pentaxian.

05-08-2019, 01:35 AM - 1 Like   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by stihlmania Quote
Steve, I could not agree more,, because if you post any comments that may be seen as a slightl to the Pentax brand, a few long term forum members will attack you. And no other longtime members or moderators seem to correct them in the errors of their posts. ..Yes I know it is not long time members or moderators job to police this site per say. But someone needs to re-think the long term.
If anyone feels they're being attacked, they should absolutely report the offending post(s) to the moderating team and we'll act. That said, "disagreement" does not equal "attack", and anyone who criticises a brand on brand-specific enthusiast forums can reasonably expect to be challenged. The tone of a few members' responses when addressing criticism of Ricoh / Pentax is occasionally unfortunate... born in part (I believe) from frustration with the unrealistic expectations that some folks have of the brand (the very reason I started this thread). But, whenever unfriendly behaviour is noted by or reported to the moderators (we depend heavily on reports as we can't read every post in every thread), we weigh up the entire conversation and act as we feel appropriate.

If you have a suggestion re the longer term, please raise it with Adam in the Site Suggestions & Feedback forum - he's always grateful to hear any ideas put forward. Or, if you wish to discuss moderating actions, contact Adam by PM (or you can PM me ).

With that, let's return to the thread topic

Last edited by BigMackCam; 05-08-2019 at 02:45 PM.
05-08-2019, 11:11 AM - 3 Likes   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Week 105 here in the UK / Europe... but, then, our prices are generally a little higher too..
My recent experience with my K1 requiring a major repair to its electrics, is that the cut-off is not a hard one. I was in week 111 and still got a warranty repair. Well done Pentax, and the UK main dealer who assisted me.
05-08-2019, 05:27 PM - 1 Like   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
My recent experience with my K1 requiring a major repair to its electrics, is that the cut-off is not a hard one. I was in week 111 and still got a warranty repair. Well done Pentax, and the UK main dealer who assisted me.
We shouldn't publicise these feelgood cases too much, because there's a chance that they did the repair, invoiced Ricoh for doing it, but didn't tell Ricoh the customer was actually out of the warranty period!

I will say that the distributors in Australia … CR Kennedy … are very good, I'll leave it at that.

Obviously worldwide the quality of the local branch or company that has the contract will vary tremendously.

05-08-2019, 09:23 PM - 3 Likes   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
... or,

"Your camera failed? ... A 'LIGHT BULB' MOMENT"


Every now and then, a new member joins our forums to report that their shiny new or well-cared-for Ricoh or Pentax camera has developed a fault, or died completely. As part of the catharsis in expressing their understandable disappointment, a few will then state they're very disillusioned with, or have lost faith in, the brand. Indeed, a small few join these forums (or post for the first time) simply to tell everyone their camera died, and they're never buying another Ricoh or Pentax product again (I call these more extreme cases "drive by" posts ).

At the time of writing, we've had a few such posts (relating to different camera models) in the last week or two. Since I usually reply to them with similar views and advice, I thought it best to start this thread for the benefit of anyone experiencing problems and perhaps losing faith or contemplating switching in future.

....


"My Ricoh / Pentax camera (or lens, or flash, or something else) has failed, and I'm bitterly disappointed / disillusioned with the brand / going to switch"

Fact: There is no economically-viable manufacturing or quality assurance process that guarantees every component and mechanism in every instance of every new product will make it out of the factory working, and keep on working until (or beyond) that product's expected service life. If such manufacturing and quality assurance processes were put in place, the cost of production would be so high that most folks wouldn't be able to afford the products, or - at the very least - wouldn't be prepared to pay so much for them.

This is true even for the simplest of products... such as the humble domestic light bulb (here comes our "LIGHT BULB MOMENT" )...

Any member here of adult age will have bought light bulbs for their home and - at one time or another - found that one of them doesn't work out of the box, or blows the first time it's switched on, or perhaps after just a few days or weeks of use. What went wrong?

That light bulb is assembled from a number of components. Each component is individually designed, and specific materials are chosen and sourced to make them. A range of machines are used to manufacture these components, and others to assemble them, quality check them (so far as is realistically possible on a fast production line), and pack them.

The most likely cause of the light bulb's failure - at least, when it's new - is that one or more components failed, or there was an assembly problem. For the components, perhaps a slight quality issue in a batch of materials was to blame - or maybe a misalignment or one-time glitch in machinery resulted in a tiny flaw. For assembly, perhaps the components weren't lined up or joined correctly, due to a misalignment or one-time glitch in the machinery. Or maybe the bulb was assembled just fine, but suffered some minor damage during the automated packing process, due to (you guessed it) a misalignment or one-time glitch in the machinery. All of these machines, like any other electro-mechanical devices, require regular checking, adjustment and servicing. Even then, just like motor cars, when everything seems to be working properly, occasionally there's a hiccup that can't be easily diagnosed or explained.

Of course, it could be that the design of the light bulb is itself flawed. In which case, even if the materials and manufacturing processes are up to par, a significant number of the bulbs will be dead on arrival, or will fail early on. If someone buys several boxes of those same brand light bulbs over a period of time, and finds that half or third of them either don't work out of the box or fail pretty quickly, they'll reasonably conclude that they're not great quality and switch to a different brand of bulb ("My OSRAM bulb died! How can OSRAM build such a terrible bulb? I've never heard of this with other bulbs. I've lost confidence in the brand. I'm never buying another OSRAM product. I'm switching to ....").

This is just a very simple light bulb we're talking about, here. A product with no moving parts, assembled from a handful of relatively large components with fairly big tolerances.

Now, consider - if you will - a digital SLR or mirrorless camera. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of components, fashioned from a huge range of appropriate materials sourced from different suppliers. Many of the electronic components themselves made up of hundreds of miniaturised discrete components many, many times smaller than a grain of sand. Mechanical assemblies made up of many parts manufactured and adjusted to ridiculously narrow tolerances. Optical assemblies. Mechanical and electro-mechanical switches. Body components. Seals. Coverings. And no camera manufacturer is capable of making every one of these components. Many - especially the electronic and electrical ones - are bought from other companies.

How does Ricoh / Pentax design, manufacture, assemble and test products such that every instance of them is perfect, fully operational at the time of delivery, and reliable for their entire intended service life?

It can't. And nor can any other brand. It's simply impossible for any camera manufacturer to test and quality assure every discrete and integrated component (whether manufactured by them or a 3rd party supplier), and every assembly, for every instance of every product. When you think about it, given the complexity, it's testament to Ricoh (and the suppliers of all the components they use in their cameras) that so few instances of products fail.

Of course, this is cold comfort to those of us who receive a faulty product, or one that fails shortly after purchase or after a short time of careful use...

....

"My Ricoh / Pentax camera (or lens, or flash, or something else) has failed, and I'm bitterly disappointed / disillusioned with the brand / going to switch"

I sympathise, I really do. I've bought products that didn't work, or failed shortly after purchase or careful use. It's disappointing. Disappointing, and frustrating enough that we sometimes lose our cool over it. But it happens... WITH EVERY BRAND. Don't believe me? Search the web and you will find reports of failure with every camera model from every manufacturer - Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fujifilm, Olympus, Panasonic, Leica etc. - and, yes, Ricoh / Pentax. As such, it's quite possible that with any given brand, we might be unfortunate enough to experience failure with one or more products (two or three in a row can really dent our faith, but that happens too). That isn't, IMHO, enough evidence upon which to lose faith in any brand... it's not enough evidence to demonstrate there's a widespread problem with the brand or a specific model. For that, we need to collect much more data, from many more similarly-affected owners (if they exist). And it's very rare that happens - because there are remarkably few large volume problems with cameras from any of the brands - Ricoh / Pentax included.

The next time you buy a box of 20 simple light bulbs from your preferred manufacturer, and one of them is dead out of the box, or blows when you install it, will you lose all faith in the manufacturer?
I've only just stumbled upon this thread of yours Mike. Most interesting read.

As a Landrover owner I am immune to bitching about something I own that's not working as it should. And, strangely, I've never seen anyone comment on a Landrover Forum that they'll never buy another Landrover for as long as they live. And, Landrovers generally cost more than cameras. Funny that!
05-08-2019, 11:06 PM - 1 Like   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
As a Landrover owner I am immune to bitching about something I own that's not working as it should
I share your pain
05-09-2019, 06:17 AM - 2 Likes   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
I've only just stumbled upon this thread of yours Mike. Most interesting read.

As a Landrover owner I am immune to bitching about something I own that's not working as it should. And, strangely, I've never seen anyone comment on a Landrover Forum that they'll never buy another Landrover for as long as they live. And, Landrovers generally cost more than cameras. Funny that!
Most Landrover Owners know what they are getting into. I'm guessing that many camera owners don't. I still have the hammers and chisels I used when I was apprenticing as a cabinet maker back in the 70's. Those tools still work as designed. I get the impression many think a camera should be like a hammer. The real thing that you can absolutely count on is, if it has moving parts, some of them will eventually fail. It may be sooner, it may be later but failure is inevitable.


Last edited by normhead; 05-09-2019 at 05:52 PM.
05-09-2019, 11:00 AM - 2 Likes   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I get the impression many think a camera should be like a hammer.
I think some people use their camera as a hammer.
05-09-2019, 01:45 PM   #129
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I have a defective K-50. It went bad with about 3,500 clicks from an aperture block failure. I procrastinated and didn't get it fixed while it was still under extended warranty. My mistake there, but the camera is nevertheless defective with a bad solenoid. Now if my camera was the only one, or one of relatively few K-50s that came down with aperture block failure, I'd be sanguine about the matter. Stuff happens. I get it. After all, I've got a K-3II, a couple of K-01s, and my wife's K-50 is still working fine. And, I've had a K-20D and a K-x that worked without a hitch. But, and it's a big but, Pentax seems indifferent about the issue. After all, it started with the K-30, then the K-50 and K-500, and then the K-S1, and then the K-S2. All of which suffer with the same problem -- a junk solenoid. Maybe, it's even in the K-70. Why does Pentax keep using the same part? They know it's poor quality. They know this isn't a random parts failure. Pentax's response to date has been dead silence. Kinda like their response on the SDM problem.

How does this bad solenoid issue together with Pentax's lack of response regarding it comport with the comments from a Pentax executive at CP+ that "I think it would be good if in the future PENTAX would be the brand through which we could communicate the sheer joy of taking pictures by enhancing services as well as the impression given to more discerning customers with the idea that photography is a great pleasure?" There's no joy in a broken camera, whether it be an entry-level model or a top-of-the-line.
05-09-2019, 02:21 PM - 1 Like   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by West Penn Quote
I have a defective K-50. It went bad with about 3,500 clicks from an aperture block failure. I procrastinated and didn't get it fixed while it was still under extended warranty. My mistake there, but the camera is nevertheless defective with a bad solenoid. Now if my camera was the only one, or one of relatively few K-50s that came down with aperture block failure, I'd be sanguine about the matter. Stuff happens. I get it. After all, I've got a K-3II, a couple of K-01s, and my wife's K-50 is still working fine. And, I've had a K-20D and a K-x that worked without a hitch. But, and it's a big but, Pentax seems indifferent about the issue. After all, it started with the K-30, then the K-50 and K-500, and then the K-S1, and then the K-S2. All of which suffer with the same problem -- a junk solenoid. Maybe, it's even in the K-70. Why does Pentax keep using the same part? They know it's poor quality.
Actually, it is not poor quality - it is different characteristics than needed to do this function. As I have explained several times, their supplier changed materials used in making this solenoid, and what had worked for several decades for them suddenly let them down {your K-x that "worked without a hitch" probably has a part with the same part # in it}. The problem takes several years to develop, so they were already well into K-50 production before the problem started appearing, and then they needed time to see that it was a reoccurring problem, then more time to diagnose the problem.

QuoteOriginally posted by West Penn Quote
How does this bad solenoid issue together with Pentax's lack of response regarding it comport with the comments from a Pentax executive at CP+ that "I think it would be good if in the future PENTAX would be the brand through which we could communicate the sheer joy of taking pictures by enhancing services as well as the impression given to more discerning customers with the idea that photography is a great pleasure?" There's no joy in a broken camera, whether it be an entry-level model or a top-of-the-line.
I continue to get joy from my K-30 when I use it - I just use it with lenses that have aperture rings {just as you do, but I don't find it to be a pain .... much easier than using manual focus lenses with my Super Program} - the other lenses are now in my KP bag.

Last edited by reh321; 05-09-2019 at 02:26 PM.
05-09-2019, 02:56 PM   #131
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I don't wish to get into a back-and-forth on this issue, but the part number of the junk solenoid in my K-50 may be the same as in my K-x, but it is not the same part. The plastic in the junk solenoid is green. The plastic in the K-x solenoid is white. The green one is made in China. The white one was made in Japan. The white ones seem to last as the should. The green one seems to fail way, way to often. Pentax engineers have had years to figure this out.

The bottom line here is that Pentax has to know that the green solenoid fails too often to be sheer coincidence. They did nothing about it. They continued to produce cameras using this junk part. It's one thing to be unaware of a part that fails to meet expectations. It's quite another to turn a blind eye to the problem.

I too use the K-50 (on rare occasions) with lenses with an aperture ring and use the green button for proper exposure, but that isn't exactly what the the camera was designed for. If you find joy in a broken camera, I'm happy for you. I'm with the crowd who think Pentax blew it when it comes to customer support.
05-09-2019, 03:15 PM - 1 Like   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by West Penn Quote
I don't wish to get into a back-and-forth on this issue, but the part number of the junk solenoid in my K-50 may be the same as in my K-x, but it is not the same part. The plastic in the junk solenoid is green. The plastic in the K-x solenoid is white. The green one is made in China. The white one was made in Japan. The white ones seem to last as the should. The green one seems to fail way, way to often. Pentax engineers have had years to figure this out.

The bottom line here is that Pentax has to know that the green solenoid fails too often to be sheer coincidence. They did nothing about it. They continued to produce cameras using this junk part. It's one thing to be unaware of a part that fails to meet expectations. It's quite another to turn a blind eye to the problem.

I too use the K-50 (on rare occasions) with lenses with an aperture ring and use the green button for proper exposure, but that isn't exactly what the the camera was designed for. If you find joy in a broken camera, I'm happy for you. I'm with the crowd who think Pentax blew it when it comes to customer support.
I'm not defending Ricoh on the aperture control solenoid issue, because it is widespread in the K-30 and K-50, and I believe the company should have been more transparent as it learned of the problem over time, and extended greater post-warranty resolution options to its loyal customers. Although I've not owned an affected camera model, Ricoh still lost some of my faith as a result of the problem and its handling of it.

That said...

I don't believe the component alone is the problem - not in isolation. I believe it's the overall design of the aperture control mechanism and use of the part in this specific configuration that's the issue. I'd bet that same part is working just fine in other products where it is used differently. Indeed, the K-S1 and K-S2 (which, anecdotally, had already been released by the time Ricoh was fully aware of the issue) don't appear to have demonstrated anything like the same proportion of failures. There have been some, sure... but from what we can tell, nothing like as many as the K-30 and K-50. The K-70 is still quite young, but so far has shown remarkably few failures, and I'm not certain they've been conclusively linked to the solenoid and its configuration. According to Ricoh, the design of the mechanism was updated in the K-70. So, with respect, I don't think it's accurate to call the solenoid a "junk part" and say Ricoh did nothing about it.

You're free to feel differently, of course - and that would be understandable, given that you were affected by the problem and rightly disappointed. But I think we need to differentiate between what we know as absolute, irrefutable fact versus what we suspect and assume. Let's be frank, no legitimate company - Ricoh included - would continue to make products knowing they would fail.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 05-09-2019 at 03:53 PM.
05-09-2019, 03:44 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by West Penn Quote
I don't wish to get into a back-and-forth on this issue, but the part number of the junk solenoid in my K-50 may be the same as in my K-x, but it is not the same part. The plastic in the junk solenoid is green. The plastic in the K-x solenoid is white. The green one is made in China. The white one was made in Japan. The white ones seem to last as the should. The green one seems to fail way, way to often. Pentax engineers have had years to figure this out.

The bottom line here is that Pentax has to know that the green solenoid fails too often to be sheer coincidence. They did nothing about it. They continued to produce cameras using this junk part. It's one thing to be unaware of a part that fails to meet expectations. It's quite another to turn a blind eye to the problem.

I too use the K-50 (on rare occasions) with lenses with an aperture ring and use the green button for proper exposure, but that isn't exactly what the the camera was designed for. If you find joy in a broken camera, I'm happy for you. I'm with the crowd who think Pentax blew it when it comes to customer support.
And when do you think they learned that the so-called "green" solenoids are a problem????
At some point, when they ordered parts with a particular part #, they started getting the so-called "green" ones.
The new version of the part performs correctly when new, so they would pass "Receiving Inspection".
I believe they {Pentax} learned about the problem just about the same time we did - after the K-30 and K-50 cameras were failing out in the field.
The so-called "green" and so-called "white" solenoids are made by the same company, which changed materials used when they moved production.
The so-called "white" ones are no longer made - the so-called "green" ones have that same part number now .... there is no way to order the original one now.
They {Pentax} didn't "do nothing" - the part surrounding the solenoid was redesigned, or so people who have looked at recent cameras have said.
What else do you want of the engineers?

Last edited by reh321; 05-09-2019 at 03:49 PM. Reason: {Pentax}
05-09-2019, 04:10 PM - 2 Likes   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
If anyone feels they're being attacked, they should absolutely report the offending post(s) to the moderating team and we'll act. That said, "disagreement" does not equal "attack", and anyone who criticises a brand on brand-specific enthusiast forums can reasonably expect to be challenged. The tone of a few members' responses when addressing criticism of Ricoh / Pentax is occasionally unfortunate... born in part (I believe) from frustration with the unrealistic expectations that some folks have of the brand (the very reason I started this thread). But, whenever unfriendly behaviour is noted by or reported to the moderators (we depend heavily on reports as we can't read every post in every thread), we weigh up the entire conversation and act as we feel appropriate.

If you have a suggestion re the longer term, please raise it with Adam in the Site Suggestions & Feedback forum - he's always grateful to hear any ideas put forward. Or, if you wish to discuss moderating actions, contact Adam by PM (or you can PM me ).

With that, let's return to the thread topic
Very well spoken, no real challenge from me. "The tone of a few members when addressing critics of Ricoh/Pentax is occasionally unfortunate" is notable to me if you remove the word occasionally) and your points are good. I truely believe that no moderator can patrol (moderate if you wish) any forum, only regular members can set the tone for all to follow. Challenged is not a personal attack, that I have no issue with.... I will conclude my response with my opinion the the PF moderators do a wonderful job under thankless conditions... and I do thank you all for your contribution to this site. Now back to what I joined this forum to do since day 1, show what certain camera/ lens combos can do, reguardless if anyone agrees with what or why I am shooting these images!

---------- Post added 05-09-19 at 06:26 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Most Landrover Owners know what the are getting into. I'm guessing that many camera owners don't. I still have the hammers and chisels I used when I was apprenticing as a cabinet maker back in the 70's. Those tools still work as designed. I get the impression many think a camera should be like a hammer. The real thing that you can absolutely count on is, if it has moving parts, some of them will eventually fail. It may be sooner, it may be later but failure is inevitable.
The typical Land Rover owner in central Texas have no idea what they are getting into. They want every indepentant repair place to be able to fix this vehicle and they refuse to return to to dealer except for warranty repairs...Not good.... my day job is vehicle repair and I will not work on Rovers, Audi, Porche or Smart for many reasons, mostly because of the owners. I still work on Mercedes if the owner does not want a quote on the total cost. If they want a repair quote I refer them to 4 different shops for such service... I have done Mercedes repair for 20 years so I can speak with experience here....you will get what you pay for!
05-09-2019, 04:32 PM - 2 Likes   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by stihlmania Quote
The typical Land Rover owner in central Texas have no idea what they are getting into. They want every indepentant repair place to be able to fix this vehicle and they refuse to return to to dealer except for warranty repairs...Not good.... my day job is vehicle repair and I will not work on Rovers, Audi, Porche or Smart for many reasons, mostly because of the owners. I still work on Mercedes if the owner does not want a quote on the total cost. If they want a repair quote I refer them to 4 different shops for such service... I have done Mercedes repair for 20 years so I can speak with experience here....you will get what you pay for!
There are two kinds of vehicle owners:

1) Those who want to get from A to B reliably with some combination of speed, style, and low-cost.

2) Those who want a surrogate infant that emits mysterious sounds and fluids on a regular basis thus requiring trips to "the doctor".
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