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06-17-2019, 07:33 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
But if i can't pick it up and find the basic features I know use on a regular basis intuitively that's disadvantage. I don't need every feature to be intuitive. In fact many I expect to memorize. Format a K-1, 6 left , two up after pressing the menu button. But in AV mode, I want things to be as close as possible to the operation fo film camera as possible.

This is what I want, AV mode, I want set my ISO when I pick up the camera, set my f-stop before putting the camera to my eye and adjust the +/- EV setting. I want those feature available without going into the menus, from dials and button I can reach , using muscle memory only, without taking my eye out of the viewfinder.

If it doesn't meet that basic standard, I don't care what it is. I'm not buying it. My Pentax XG-1 Mirrorless with EVF does not meet those standards, but I probably paid less than what it cost to manufacture it, so I' suffer with it from time to time. Honestly, the menu diving on the XG-1 to set the +/- EV is truly irritating, and if I haven't used the camera for a while, I may even forget how to do it and have to go on a menu exploration extravaganza. When you're out in a buggy field doing a few flower images, that is really irritating.

You definitely can't assume all cameras are equal in this regard.
Absolutely!

Ironically, the more advanced cameras are actually more intuitive because more of the functionality comes from dedicated controls that don't require any menu navigation or modal awareness. I feel sorry for beginners who buy a low-end ILC with one e-dial and have to learn/remember that the one dial does different things in different modes. Personally, I'm still waiting for a camera with FOUR dedicated e-dials (not Fuji's labeled dials) for shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and ±EC.

That said, a camera like the K-1 contains tremendous depth of sophisticated features each with it's own complex combinations of settings. For example, Interval Composite has five subcontrols: interval duration, number of frames, trigger conditions/time, the mode of image composite, and the process saving option. Learning what all these settings do, how they affect different scenarios, and why you'd want to use one setting or another takes time and thought.

It's easy to use the K-1 to do simple things simply (e.g., Av mode) but it's also possible to do very complex things.

06-17-2019, 09:06 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It's easy to use the K-1 to do simple things simply (e.g., Av mode) but it's also possible to do very complex things.
I seriously don't mind having to menu dive for complicated menu features. Sitting on a campsite waiting for golden hour, you have to do something to kill time.
06-17-2019, 10:01 AM - 2 Likes   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
you have to do something to kill time.
For that Ricoh could give some games to install via SD card boot.
06-17-2019, 02:34 PM   #19
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FWIW w.r.t. the need to use an SLR/DSLR whilst still wearing glasses - and going back nearly 20 years! - I tried the early film MZ-series bodies and concluded that if the viewfinder won't let me see the whole frame then it was of no use to me! Thus I bought an MZ-5N and not an MZ30 (etc.) - and the same was true w.r.t. the early Pentax DSLR bodies, and so the first one I bought was the Samsung clone (GX10) of the K10D. And that approach is still true.

06-17-2019, 03:04 PM - 1 Like   #20
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I read the lens reviews for the system. Camera bodies come and go, but good lenses are what makes a camera worth using.
06-17-2019, 03:05 PM   #21
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Even though I was a big Pentax fan before I bought my first Pentax digital..a K10D..I researched it quite a bit on the internet. After awhile I decided to make the plunge and bought my new K10D...body only and used my 35-105 A Macro for a month or so , until I bought a Pentax 16-45 lens.

For the next 6-7 months I didn't have much of a chance to try out my new fangled (to me) equipment as I was nearing retirement and work as always was paramount and tremendously busy. Then came retirement and I realized my K10D was quite different from my film K1000.

I bought Yvon Bourque's excellent book on using the K10D and of course I had the owner's manual. I then sat down with these two books and also the Pentax Forum and went through feature by feature, page by page and asked questions that I couldn't figure out...on the Forum.

What a difference in my ability to use this camera after about a month of solid concentration, reading, trying out, reading again, trying out again, etc.

I bought the K1 and employed a similar methodology ...only spread over a longer time...hey...I'm retired now ! This is how I learn best, others may differ in their learning style. Oh BTW, I bought Yvon Bourque's online manual for the K1. His stuff I have found for me, are the best resources.

So when I buy something new and complicated, I don't expect to know everything before I get the item in my hot, little hands. I fully expect to work away at it, read about it in the manual, check out forums, articles, etc...and right now I'm following the same, what may seem to some...laborious procedure with my new Ricoh GR ll.
06-17-2019, 03:45 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I decided to buy based on some key features
Same here. I look for the features I want/need. If I was very advanced as a photographer I would be considering more features. But knowing everything is not really feasible. I would be clogging my brain with even more stuff that I don't need!

06-17-2019, 03:48 PM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Personally, I'm still waiting for a camera with FOUR dedicated e-dials (not Fuji's labeled dials) for shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and ±EC.
My KP has the same arrangement as the K-1, so I have one e-dial for each of shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. It's metering is adequately accurate, so I seldom change EC; each of my three Pentax cameras has a button labeled '+/-' ...... so I have no problem figuring out how to quickly change EC if I need to on a one e-dial system {Q-7}, two e-dial system {K-30}, or three e-dial system {KP}. I wouldn't want any of these bodies to be enlarged to accommodate another e-dial.
06-17-2019, 07:09 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Question is how to make the right buy theses day, when we can't really trust online review and trying online isn't an option.
Yes, this is a conundrum. I think you should make the acquaintance of some professional photographers in your city who work with the gear you are interested in. Since it's isn't possible for you to "try" a $10,000 camera, let alone purchase one only to find several crucial features simply don't gel with your workflow...and having to sell it as used and take a financial loss in the process.
06-17-2019, 07:42 PM   #25
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I think to a degree you have to let go of picking the ‘best’ camera and just ‘come close’, then adapt to what you get.

My approach is pretty simple since I don’t need to make a living using the camera and productivity isn’t important. I read reviewers I trust, talk to friends who shoot other brands, look at photographs of the controls for placement and function and imagine my shooting scenarios from most to least common. I usually buy a camera that has features I know I will use often and try not to waste money on cool features I won’t use.

Then I train myself to use the camera. I don’t expect them to be perfect, I expect them to be learnable. I expect to make compromises and have some frustrations - I just want to limit those and don’t want to learn more than I need to learn (which leads to a Pentax bias because they have been consistent in so much of the interface). I suppose I manage my expectations.

I’ve bought K10D, K-01, K-3 and K-1 new. K-01 was an impulse. I should not have bought it but I came to like it. K10D was a lot of work and took a long time to learn. K-3 was easy to learn but the body was too small. K-1 is as close to the perfect camera for me as there could be. It just fits me and is intuitive and I have a large complement of FF lenses. I probably won’t buy the new APSc camera; I might buy the next FF camera because I expect it to have all the new technology unless I don’t have a need for whatever that tech is (Focus Peaking in the viewfinder would definitely be useful, better video wouldn’t).

Bottom line is I accept that I\there’s no way I can make a fully informed decision buying online. I just deal with whatever I didn’t know or send it back altogether or sell it and move on.
06-18-2019, 06:02 AM   #26
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It's also possible to get too much information in this day and age of online reviews (thanks, XKCD):



No matter how great the camera, some people will hate it, some will claim the camera is no good because it is not best in every possible way, and some will have had a bad experience with it.
06-18-2019, 06:07 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It's also possible to get too much information in this day and age of online reviews (thanks, XKCD):



No matter how great the camera, some people will hate it, some will claim the camera is no good because it is not best in every possible way, and some will have had a bad experience with it.
I have a weird thought

good photography is a formula -

knowledge + experience + equipment

check out the prime thread to see what some can do with " equipment " regardless of how old or new it might be

prime, prime, everywhere a prime... - PentaxForums.com
06-18-2019, 07:39 AM - 1 Like   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It's also possible to get too much information in this day and age of online reviews (thanks, XKCD):



No matter how great the camera, some people will hate it, some will claim the camera is no good because it is not best in every possible way, and some will have had a bad experience with it.
It's not about the cameras, there's many cameras out their with many interesting distinctions. It's up to the consumer to find what works for them. Got a camera you don't like? That's on you. Don't blame Pentax or anyone else. Your bad decision is not really of interest to anyone but yourself.
06-18-2019, 01:11 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
I have a weird thought

good photography is a formula -

knowledge + experience + equipment

check out the prime thread to see what some can do with " equipment " regardless of how old or new it might be

prime, prime, everywhere a prime... - PentaxForums.com
Web sized pictures: the great equalizer. If I clean the lens on my cell phone the pictures look as good as my K1 as long as I keep the size small enough.
If all you do is shoot for 600x900 pixel display sizes, it doesn't much matter what quality your gear is.
06-18-2019, 01:58 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It's not about the cameras, there's many cameras out their with many interesting distinctions. It's up to the consumer to find what works for them. Got a camera you don't like? That's on you. Don't blame Pentax or anyone else. Your bad decision is not really of interest to anyone but yourself.
But it is about the camera.

The whole point of the thread is "how do you know before you buy?" So how do know about the camera so you can avoid the bad decision?

I'm not sure that telling the poster it is up to them find what works for them helps much unless you truly believe that nothing that anyone else says about a camera provides any information at all about whether a given camera will work for a given consumer.

Personally, I think that one of the big secrets for the success of humanity is that we can learn from each other so that we don't have to keep repeating the same dumb mistakes that everyone else has made.

As far as blaming the camera or the brand, that only comes up if the camera maker made misleading claims that made the consumer think they had found a camera that works for them when, in fact, they had not.
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