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View Poll Results: Which of the pairs is the FF image? You get 6 choices.
1 is FF 2843.08%
2 is FF 3553.85%
3 is FF 3858.46%
4 is FF 2436.92%
5 is FF 3858.46%
6 is FF 2538.46%
7 is FF 3147.69%
8 us FF 2741.54%
9 is FF 1523.08%
10 is FF 4264.62%
11 is FF 1523.08%
11 is APS_c 3046.15%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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06-23-2019, 06:36 AM - 1 Like   #1
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Full frame or APS-c, you be the judge.

K-3 and Sigma 70 macro or K-1 DFA 100 Macro

1.


2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


9.

10.


11.


Last edited by normhead; 06-23-2019 at 07:01 AM.
06-23-2019, 06:45 AM   #2
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Norm - Image 8 has a bizzarre duplicated set of rows at the bottom of the image. DOF, focus, and framing make some of the others very difficult to decide. Am starting to wonder if they are all APS-C.
06-23-2019, 07:04 AM   #3
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Norm, would you consider adding an option "can't decide" or similar, I can't see something obviously differenct (which I have the feeling is the whole point of this exercise?)
06-23-2019, 07:08 AM - 2 Likes   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by ProfessorBuzz Quote
Norm - Image 8 has a bizzarre duplicated set of rows at the bottom of the image. DOF, focus, and framing make some of the others very difficult to decide. Am starting to wonder if they are all APS-C.
Ya that is bizarre, I'll try and fix it. Opps not as easy as i thought. Would require redo and reload. I had to strip the exif from the photos, by copy pasting them onto a blank page. So, not my usual work flow. I don't know what happened.
Methodology.
Same tripod placement
K-3 with Sigma 70 macro
K-1 with DFA 100 macro.

K-1 shot at ƒ8, K-3 shot at ƒ5.6 to normalize DoF.

Notes, the 1 stop difference and 100 ISO and light wind made keepers much easier to achieve on APS-c.
Lighting conditions were not always the exact same. It was always bright but not always direct sun.
All shot approx. the same day and time, within 10 minutes. Macro shots, shot in live view, manually focused. Distance shots shot in AF.s

All macros shot on the tripod with the 2 second timer.

I didn't do anything special for the test. Just went out with two cameras instead of one, took two images instead of one, and otherwise just took the images i was interested in that day.

---------- Post added 06-23-19 at 10:15 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by aaacb Quote
Norm, would you consider adding an option "can't decide" or similar, I can't see something obviously differenct (which I have the feeling is the whole point of this exercise?)
I'd prefer people just made a best guess. Sometimes we know more than we think we do if we just go with the first though that comes to mind. Don't feel bad, I took them and I don't know, except for the one with the ant because the ant moved, and the dogs, because he's different sizes in the two images. When I post results I'm going to have to look them up in the Temp folder where I saved my work.

I don't find that at all surprising (that it's hard to tell the difference), ƒ5.6 or ƒ8 , good light, 100 ISO, all working to the strength of the smaller sensor.

Now I have to figure out how to do a test that plays to the K-1s strength. The problem being this was easy, this is the way I usually shoot so I really haven't been able to formulate a plan for demonstrating differences. I suspect this will be the "if you shoot this way, you probalby don't need a K-1" thread. Getting some images to show the situations where I would always use my K-1 is going to be more difficult. Any suggestions welcome. I'll probably be coming up with a plan over the next day or two.


Last edited by normhead; 06-23-2019 at 07:55 AM.
06-23-2019, 07:47 AM   #5
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good one. i can't wait to see the findings!
06-23-2019, 07:49 AM - 4 Likes   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Ya that is bizarre, I'll try and fix it. Opps not as easy as i thought. Would require reload. I had to strip the exif from the photos, by copy pasting them onto a blank page. So, not my usual work flow. I don't know what happened.
Methodology.
Same tripod placement
K-3 with Sigma 70 macro
K-1 with DFA 100 macro.

K-1 shot at 8, K-3 shot at 5.6 to normalize DoF.

Notes, the 1 stop difference and 100 ISO and light wind made keepers much easier to achieve on APS-c.
Lighting conditions were not always the exact same. It was always bright but not always direct sun.
All shot approx. the same day and time, within 10 minutes. Macro shots, shot in live view, manually focused. Distance shots shot in AF.s

I didn't do anything special for the test. Just went out with two cameras instead of one, took two images instead of one, and otherwise just took the images i was interested in that day.
Your series is excellent proof of the much maligned "equivalence" concept. All cameras of different formats can readily take the same kinds of pictures over a broad range of angle-of-view, depth-of-field, shutter speed, and noise/graininess. It's only at the edges of the parameter space that one format or another becomes easier or more feasible.

If you want the K-1 to "win," then repeat the series at night with a full moon, go ultrawide, go for super-shallow DoF, or print larger than 40" x 60". FF-users have an easier time with wide angle, low light, shallow DoF, and super-high resolution.

If you want the K-3 to "win," then repeat the series on scenes smaller than 36mmx24mm (which add the hassle of extension tubes for macro above 1:1 on FF), twitchy little birds, sports-action, and the like. APS-C-users have an easier time with telephoto, macro, and high FPS.

No single format is universally better unless you restrict your photography to certain niches.
06-23-2019, 08:04 AM - 1 Like   #7
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I hope I can remember my answers til the reveal.
06-23-2019, 08:04 AM - 2 Likes   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
No single format is universally better unless you restrict your photography to certain niches.
You really have to pick your camera for the special things it does. 90 percent of what I do, all cameras can do. It's what I value in the last 10% that has me pick one camera over another. I suspect adding one of my point and shoots to the mix with these parameters, 3840x 2160, bright sun, 100 ISO equivalent to ƒ8 aperture, would have produced very similar results.

---------- Post added 06-23-19 at 11:13 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Your series is excellent proof of the much maligned "equivalence" concept.
I've never minded equivalence, just the endlessly mindless parade of nonsense people think they know, trying to extend it to things it doesn't address. It tells you what the equivalent lens is on an equivalent system. It doesn't tell you which format is best for what you do, it doesn't affect "total light", and it should never be more complicated than a bit of simple math done in your head. I didn't look at an equivalence chart to equalize the DoF. All I needed to do was to memorize the crop factor. It's really simple. If people would quit trying to make it so complicated I'd have no issue with it.


Last edited by normhead; 06-23-2019 at 09:49 AM.
06-23-2019, 08:17 AM   #9
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We don't have a Q Macro lens, but I would love to see a Q / APS-C / FF shootout at these resolutions.

My best guess: FF 1, 4, 5, 8, 10
06-23-2019, 08:20 AM   #10
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It's easy, I can recognize at first glance
06-23-2019, 08:23 AM   #11
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Last one felt hardest to make a decicion as there was no comparison shot and light is flat. Had to go with the feeling. I believe that finesse in color transitions tell out the FF in this test, but it remains to be seen, if I was right or wrong. At least now it looks I don't always agree with majority, so will be interesting to see the results.
06-23-2019, 08:27 AM   #12
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I had to write my answers down too, because I won't remember.

Thanks for the Sunday morning challenge @Normhead
06-23-2019, 08:31 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by caliscouser Quote
We don't have a Q Macro lens, but I would love to see a Q / APS-C / FF shootout at these resolutions.

My best guess: FF 1, 4, 5, 8, 10
My XG-1 has the same size sensor as the Q and has a macro function, so I was tempted, But adding another sensor would have made a lot more work. You might not believe how hard it is getting equivalent images in a light breeze. Not to mention that the XG-1 really is a snapshot type camera. It's hard to do anything really precise with it. It would have more than doubled the work.

I would have missed even more of the baseball game.

As it was it worked out perfectly.

The Jays were behind 6-0 when I turned on the game, they came back and won 8-7. I got to miss the part I didn't want to see and watched the good part.

---------- Post added 06-23-19 at 11:40 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by iheiramo Quote
Last one felt hardest to make a decicion as there was no comparison shot and light is flat. Had to go with the feeling. I believe that finesse in color transitions tell out the FF in this test, but it remains to be seen, if I was right or wrong. At least now it looks I don't always agree with majority, so will be interesting to see the results.
The darn dog left after the first shot.
And I wanted a chance for a draw.

And whether or not you can tell the difference without a comparison image is an equally valid subject of investigation, one I'm so sure will come out a draw that I won't bother posting a test, at least not with these parameters.

Last edited by normhead; 06-23-2019 at 01:34 PM.
06-23-2019, 08:43 AM   #14
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Interesting post.

I'm going with 1, 4, 6, 7, and 9 as FF. Can't call the last one without a comparison shot.
06-23-2019, 08:45 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Riggomatic Quote
I had to write my answers down too, because I won't remember.

Thanks for the Sunday morning challenge @Normhead
5 years ago, I got into a discussion about this very topic. Whether or not APS-c would be as good as an FF on a 4k TV. I didn't have an FF camera at the time, and almost no one had 4k TV at the time. So, now I get to see if I win that argument, 5 years later. An elephant never forgets.

By the way, the other party to that argument is 3 years gone. But, inquiring minds want to know.
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