Is there a bad Pentax camera?

ZombieArmy · 07-02-2019, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

Sorry to say this, but my Panasonic GX85 camera produces sharper images than all of the Pentax APS-C cameras I've owned (K3, K3ii in non-PS mode, K5, K5iis, K70 in non-pixel shift mode). .

Interesting. Got any comparisons to show?

**RobA_Oz** · 07-02-2019, 02:57 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by pres589

Probably due to the number of issues the K-5 had with regard to light/white balance and low-light AF that were fixed in the K-5 II. The II was more than just feature additions, there were performance issues that it addressed. How long was the straight K-5 produced?

The K-5 had the same number of AF points as the K-7 (and the K20D). The only difference in the AF was that the K-5 used SAFOX IX+ firmware, while the K-7 used SAFOX VIII+. The K-5 had a slightly extended meter range, but used the same 77-segment metering sensor as the K-7.

The major difference with the K-5 was the replacement of the K-7’s 14.2MP sensor with a 16.3MP sensor, which allowed an increase in the ISO range from 100-3200 to 80-51200. The top ends in both cases were largely fictional – they could be used, but the noise was prohibitive for anything approaching a realistic image.

The K-5 was in production for 2 years. Both the K20D and K-7 were in production for 1 year, successively.

---------- Post added 3rd Jul 2019 at 07:59 AM ----------

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

.
"BAD" compared to what? If your experience is only with a limited number of other Pentax digital cameras, that's all you have to base your decision on.

I think it's preferable to make your determination based on comparison's to other camera camera manufacturers systems.

For example, I consider a Pentax APS-C digital camera as "bad" if a micro four thirds camera can beat it in sharpness. Sorry to say this, but my Panasonic GX85 camera produces sharper images than all of the Pentax APS-C cameras I've owned (K3, K3ii in non-PS mode, K5, K5iis, K70 in non-pixel shift mode). Never owned a KP, but I'd expect the KP would likely beat the M4/3 in sharpness.

How much of that is due to differences in the lenses used?

Wheatfield · 07-02-2019, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by gump

I was considering a personal review/thoughts of my first year with a K-70. A shortcoming would be I have no experience with any other DSLR. This in turn led to my question. Are there any Pentax models in production or recently discontinued that are, to be kind, less than adequate? If so, a short explanation. Please, no battles!

The very first runs of the K5 had some pretty serious problems. I don't know if they ever got that camera straightened out or not, but it was fundamentally flawed in several areas in the beginning.

**landofcourtness** · 07-02-2019, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

For example, I consider a Pentax APS-C digital camera as "bad" if a micro four thirds camera can beat it in sharpness. Sorry to say this, but my Panasonic GX85 camera produces sharper images than all of the Pentax APS-C cameras I've owned (K3, K3ii in non-PS mode, K5, K5iis, K70 in non-pixel shift mode). Never owned a KP, but I'd expect the KP would likely beat the M4/3 in sharpness.

I'm also curious about this statement and what its based on?? I have a G85 (which I believe has the same sensor, similar if not same capabilities), and I can see this with the K-5s but with 16MP vs 24MP I wonder. I definitely don't think the G85 has the detail or the dynamic range of my K-3. It definitely has faster AF and fps speeds, but I'm not sure I would say it is better in sharpness.

K-500:
I feel like I should add this camera... for simple fact that I don't think I've ever even heard of anyone owning this camera. I've heard people having all of the other cameras mentioned so far, k-01 and even the K-S1... does anyone know anyone that has it??

**RobA_Oz** · 07-03-2019, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

The very first runs of the K5 had some pretty serious problems. I don't know if they ever got that camera straightened out or not, but it was fundamentally flawed in several areas in the beginning.

The first batch of K-5s had a sensor stain issue (mine didn't, fortunately). It was recognised fairly quickly and exchanges made. I'd almost forgotten that, thanks.

I can't recall any other issues, though (not saying there weren't, just that I don't recall any).

Wheatfield · 07-03-2019, 12:27 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

The first batch of K-5s had a sensor stain issue (mine didn't, fortunately). It was recognised fairly quickly and exchanges made. I'd almost forgotten that, thanks.

I can't recall any other issues, though (not saying there weren't, just that I don't recall any).

Buttons falling off, AF that only worked in daylight. I'm not sure if there were other problems. Mine didn't have stains, and it kept it's buttons, but the AF was so bad that I had to use live view with face detect in the studio if I wanted to use AF. The phase detect AF was so colour sensitive that two different skin tones needed different AF adjust.
I don't know if they got it sorted out, but the early ones were failures.

Jonathan Mac · 07-03-2019, 12:38 AM

Of course if we're talking film then there are several which I'll admit I've never tried but have a lack of features that has kept me well away from ever trying. The MZ-60 - plastic everything, including mount, and won't work with any non-AF lenses. The A3 I believe is also severely limited as to the control that the photographer has over the image.

**Serkevan** · 07-03-2019, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by landofcourtness

...but with 16MP vs 24MP I wonder. I definitely don't think the G85 has the detail or the dynamic range of my K-3?

Accounting for sensor size, the MFT sensor has slightly smaller pixel pitch. This agrees, assuming equal sensor quality, with being a bit sharper under optimal conditions and having worse dynamic range / High ISO performance due to sensor size. It would also be interesting to ask how the sharpness is measured? For the same print/screen size? At 100% magnification? I was playing around with a 12 MP Olympus Pen PL3 that I got for my cousin (it's a nice little travel camera!) and the pictures were definitely alright for viewing on my monitor, but at 100% they were noticeably worse than the K7 (then again, I was just testing the camera to make sure the copy was working properly).

**RobA_Oz** · 07-03-2019, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

Buttons falling off, AF that only worked in daylight. I'm not sure if there were other problems. Mine didn't have stains, and it kept it's buttons, but the AF was so bad that I had to use live view with face detect in the studio if I wanted to use AF. The phase detect AF was so colour sensitive that two different skin tones needed different AF adjust.
I don't know if they got it sorted out, but the early ones were failures.

Now you come to mention it, I do recall those issues, though I wasn’t personally impacted by them. Given the heritage of the AF system, the same problems must have afflicted the K-7 and K20D (maybe the K10D, as well).

**Serkevan** · 07-03-2019, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

Now you come to mention it, I do recall those issues, though I wasn’t personally impacted by them. Given the heritage of the AF system, the same problems must have afflicted the K-7 and K20D (maybe the K10D, as well).

The AF on the K7 is plain bad in low light, yep. Hunts a lot and misses by quite a big margin...

normhead · 07-03-2019, 06:15 AM

Is someone planning to put together a "bad Pentax camera" museum?

**BigMackCam** · 07-03-2019, 06:22 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

Is someone planning to put together a "bad Pentax camera" museum?

If they are, it's going to be awfully small with very little to see.

Every Pentax camera - even the K-1 / K-1II - and every model from every other brand has specifications, functionality and/or build quality that could be improved upon... but I can't think of a DSLR or MILC that's actually "bad". Maybe I'm just extremely forgiving...

normhead · 07-03-2019, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by ZombieArmy

Interesting. Got any comparisons to show?

I used to have same image taken with a Lumix FZ1000 ( 1 inch sensor, 20 MP) that looked really sharp. According to Imagine Resource test images

A Pentax K-3 tested in the same lab.

That being said, the GX 85 isn't one of those cameras

At -350 LW/PH, that is a significant difference and will be visible pixel peeping, but probably not from a normal viewing distance. However, the smaller image size with the same resolution does create better contrast, and that could be interpreted as sharper. You have to admit, the GX85 image does look crisper. But look at the colour artifacts.

I doubt that the smaller sensors can keep up at 1600 ISO, but camera manufacturers can squeeze quite a lot of detail out of a small sensor. But, you are extremely limited by low light performance. Low light is already my biggest issue even on larger sensors.

The FZ-1000 has almost the same resolution as a K-3 (and has smaller sensor) shooting in good light. Of course, the smaller the pixels the lower the diffraction limit, so you do need more light with smaller sensor.

Imagine Resources is the place for the kinds of questions.

Never underestimate what these small sensor guys can pull out of one of those sensors.

One of my big questions in life, how does Canon get more resolution out of a 30 MP camera than Nikon Sony and Pentax do out of a 36 MP camera? We tend to get locked into the "all cameras use the same sensors" thought, but there are remarkable differences between sensor manufacturers and what can be done, and Sony sensors are far from the leaders in resolution produced from a certain size or MP sensor.

As in almost everything else, Sony product tends to be vanilla.

lesmore49 · 07-03-2019, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

Buttons falling off, AF that only worked in daylight. I'm not sure if there were other problems. Mine didn't have stains, and it kept it's buttons, but the AF was so bad that I had to use live view with face detect in the studio if I wanted to use AF. The phase detect AF was so colour sensitive that two different skin tones needed different AF adjust.
I don't know if they got it sorted out, but the early ones were failures.

Also some K5 had trouble 'freezing' in all controls. Had to take the battery out and reinsert. to get it going again.

**pres589** · 07-03-2019, 07:25 AM

I had forgotten the various issues that were reported with the K-5 as I didn't own one. When I was researching Pentax options to replace my K100D, it seemed like the K-5 II & IIs were head and shoulders better than the K-5. I also found anecdotal evidence that Hoya pushed the K-5 out the door too soon and a lot of refining effort went into the later II and IIs.

I wish they had done something beyond the K-01 although I don't think that camera is "buggy" like the K-5 was.

07-03-2019, 06:41 AM	#43
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by ZombieArmy Interesting. Got any comparisons to show? I used to have same image taken with a Lumix FZ1000 ( 1 inch sensor, 20 MP) that looked really sharp. According to Imagine Resource test images A Pentax K-3 tested in the same lab. That being said, the GX 85 isn't one of those cameras At -350 LW/PH, that is a significant difference and will be visible pixel peeping, but probably not from a normal viewing distance. However, the smaller image size with the same resolution does create better contrast, and that could be interpreted as sharper. You have to admit, the GX85 image does look crisper. But look at the colour artifacts. I doubt that the smaller sensors can keep up at 1600 ISO, but camera manufacturers can squeeze quite a lot of detail out of a small sensor. But, you are extremely limited by low light performance. Low light is already my biggest issue even on larger sensors. The FZ-1000 has almost the same resolution as a K-3 (and has smaller sensor) shooting in good light. Of course, the smaller the pixels the lower the diffraction limit, so you do need more light with smaller sensor. Imagine Resources is the place for the kinds of questions. Never underestimate what these small sensor guys can pull out of one of those sensors. One of my big questions in life, how does Canon get more resolution out of a 30 MP camera than Nikon Sony and Pentax do out of a 36 MP camera? We tend to get locked into the "all cameras use the same sensors" thought, but there are remarkable differences between sensor manufacturers and what can be done, and Sony sensors are far from the leaders in resolution produced from a certain size or MP sensor. As in almost everything else, Sony product tends to be vanilla. Last edited by normhead; 07-03-2019 at 10:39 AM.

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07-02-2019, 09:59 AM	#31
ZombieArmy Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Florida Posts: 3,210	Originally posted by Fenwoodian Sorry to say this, but my Panasonic GX85 camera produces sharper images than all of the Pentax APS-C cameras I've owned (K3, K3ii in non-PS mode, K5, K5iis, K70 in non-pixel shift mode). . Interesting. Got any comparisons to show?

07-02-2019, 02:57 PM - 1 Like	#32
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,196	Originally posted by pres589 Probably due to the number of issues the K-5 had with regard to light/white balance and low-light AF that were fixed in the K-5 II. The II was more than just feature additions, there were performance issues that it addressed. How long was the straight K-5 produced? The K-5 had the same number of AF points as the K-7 (and the K20D). The only difference in the AF was that the K-5 used SAFOX IX+ firmware, while the K-7 used SAFOX VIII+. The K-5 had a slightly extended meter range, but used the same 77-segment metering sensor as the K-7. The major difference with the K-5 was the replacement of the K-7’s 14.2MP sensor with a 16.3MP sensor, which allowed an increase in the ISO range from 100-3200 to 80-51200. The top ends in both cases were largely fictional – they could be used, but the noise was prohibitive for anything approaching a realistic image. The K-5 was in production for 2 years. Both the K20D and K-7 were in production for 1 year, successively. ---------- Post added 3rd Jul 2019 at 07:59 AM ---------- Originally posted by Fenwoodian . "BAD" compared to what? If your experience is only with a limited number of other Pentax digital cameras, that's all you have to base your decision on. I think it's preferable to make your determination based on comparison's to other camera camera manufacturers systems. For example, I consider a Pentax APS-C digital camera as "bad" if a micro four thirds camera can beat it in sharpness. Sorry to say this, but my Panasonic GX85 camera produces sharper images than all of the Pentax APS-C cameras I've owned (K3, K3ii in non-PS mode, K5, K5iis, K70 in non-pixel shift mode). Never owned a KP, but I'd expect the KP would likely beat the M4/3 in sharpness. How much of that is due to differences in the lenses used?

07-02-2019, 07:46 PM	#33
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by gump I was considering a personal review/thoughts of my first year with a K-70. A shortcoming would be I have no experience with any other DSLR. This in turn led to my question. Are there any Pentax models in production or recently discontinued that are, to be kind, less than adequate? If so, a short explanation. Please, no battles! The very first runs of the K5 had some pretty serious problems. I don't know if they ever got that camera straightened out or not, but it was fundamentally flawed in several areas in the beginning.

07-02-2019, 11:11 PM	#34
landofcourtness Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 151	Originally posted by Fenwoodian For example, I consider a Pentax APS-C digital camera as "bad" if a micro four thirds camera can beat it in sharpness. Sorry to say this, but my Panasonic GX85 camera produces sharper images than all of the Pentax APS-C cameras I've owned (K3, K3ii in non-PS mode, K5, K5iis, K70 in non-pixel shift mode). Never owned a KP, but I'd expect the KP would likely beat the M4/3 in sharpness. I'm also curious about this statement and what its based on?? I have a G85 (which I believe has the same sensor, similar if not same capabilities), and I can see this with the K-5s but with 16MP vs 24MP I wonder. I definitely don't think the G85 has the detail or the dynamic range of my K-3. It definitely has faster AF and fps speeds, but I'm not sure I would say it is better in sharpness. K-500: I feel like I should add this camera... for simple fact that I don't think I've ever even heard of anyone owning this camera. I've heard people having all of the other cameras mentioned so far, k-01 and even the K-S1... does anyone know anyone that has it??

07-03-2019, 12:04 AM	#35
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,196	Originally posted by Wheatfield The very first runs of the K5 had some pretty serious problems. I don't know if they ever got that camera straightened out or not, but it was fundamentally flawed in several areas in the beginning. The first batch of K-5s had a sensor stain issue (mine didn't, fortunately). It was recognised fairly quickly and exchanges made. I'd almost forgotten that, thanks. I can't recall any other issues, though (not saying there weren't, just that I don't recall any).

07-03-2019, 12:27 AM - 1 Like	#36
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by RobA_Oz The first batch of K-5s had a sensor stain issue (mine didn't, fortunately). It was recognised fairly quickly and exchanges made. I'd almost forgotten that, thanks. I can't recall any other issues, though (not saying there weren't, just that I don't recall any). Buttons falling off, AF that only worked in daylight. I'm not sure if there were other problems. Mine didn't have stains, and it kept it's buttons, but the AF was so bad that I had to use live view with face detect in the studio if I wanted to use AF. The phase detect AF was so colour sensitive that two different skin tones needed different AF adjust. I don't know if they got it sorted out, but the early ones were failures.

07-03-2019, 12:38 AM	#37
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,894	Of course if we're talking film then there are several which I'll admit I've never tried but have a lack of features that has kept me well away from ever trying. The MZ-60 - plastic everything, including mount, and won't work with any non-AF lenses. The A3 I believe is also severely limited as to the control that the photographer has over the image.

07-03-2019, 02:03 AM	#38
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Originally posted by landofcourtness ...but with 16MP vs 24MP I wonder. I definitely don't think the G85 has the detail or the dynamic range of my K-3? Accounting for sensor size, the MFT sensor has slightly smaller pixel pitch. This agrees, assuming equal sensor quality, with being a bit sharper under optimal conditions and having worse dynamic range / High ISO performance due to sensor size. It would also be interesting to ask how the sharpness is measured? For the same print/screen size? At 100% magnification? I was playing around with a 12 MP Olympus Pen PL3 that I got for my cousin (it's a nice little travel camera!) and the pictures were definitely alright for viewing on my monitor, but at 100% they were noticeably worse than the K7 (then again, I was just testing the camera to make sure the copy was working properly).

07-03-2019, 04:43 AM	#39
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,196	Originally posted by Wheatfield Buttons falling off, AF that only worked in daylight. I'm not sure if there were other problems. Mine didn't have stains, and it kept it's buttons, but the AF was so bad that I had to use live view with face detect in the studio if I wanted to use AF. The phase detect AF was so colour sensitive that two different skin tones needed different AF adjust. I don't know if they got it sorted out, but the early ones were failures. Now you come to mention it, I do recall those issues, though I wasn’t personally impacted by them. Given the heritage of the AF system, the same problems must have afflicted the K-7 and K20D (maybe the K10D, as well).

07-03-2019, 04:49 AM	#40
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Originally posted by RobA_Oz Now you come to mention it, I do recall those issues, though I wasn’t personally impacted by them. Given the heritage of the AF system, the same problems must have afflicted the K-7 and K20D (maybe the K10D, as well). The AF on the K7 is plain bad in low light, yep. Hunts a lot and misses by quite a big margin...

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07-03-2019, 06:15 AM	#41
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Is someone planning to put together a "bad Pentax camera" museum?

07-03-2019, 06:22 AM - 1 Like	#42
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,667	Originally posted by normhead Is someone planning to put together a "bad Pentax camera" museum? If they are, it's going to be awfully small with very little to see. Every Pentax camera - even the K-1 / K-1II - and every model from every other brand has specifications, functionality and/or build quality that could be improved upon... but I can't think of a DSLR or MILC that's actually "bad". Maybe I'm just extremely forgiving...

07-03-2019, 06:49 AM	#44
lesmore49 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Western Canada Posts: 12,341	Originally posted by Wheatfield Buttons falling off, AF that only worked in daylight. I'm not sure if there were other problems. Mine didn't have stains, and it kept it's buttons, but the AF was so bad that I had to use live view with face detect in the studio if I wanted to use AF. The phase detect AF was so colour sensitive that two different skin tones needed different AF adjust. I don't know if they got it sorted out, but the early ones were failures. Also some K5 had trouble 'freezing' in all controls. Had to take the battery out and reinsert. to get it going again.

07-03-2019, 07:25 AM	#45
pres589 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Wichita, KS Photos: Albums Posts: 4,529	I had forgotten the various issues that were reported with the K-5 as I didn't own one. When I was researching Pentax options to replace my K100D, it seemed like the K-5 II & IIs were head and shoulders better than the K-5. I also found anecdotal evidence that Hoya pushed the K-5 out the door too soon and a lot of refining effort went into the later II and IIs. I wish they had done something beyond the K-01 although I don't think that camera is "buggy" like the K-5 was.