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03-03-2007, 01:05 PM   #1
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Pro Usage?

I have spoken to several Pro friends of mine about my making the switch from you know who. Several of them are waiting on the 645D before going full steam ahead and leaving their present camps.. Some are waiting for 1.3 or FF and others are waiting till some of the rough edges are smoothed out. Some others want my feedback before doing so. I, as usual jumped in head first! It's been a fun ride.

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03-03-2007, 01:42 PM   #2
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It is cool that Pentax is drawing that much attention. It will be interesting to see what Pentax does with that attention.
03-03-2007, 02:38 PM   #3
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to me the whole thing is simple, it will be like before ,like it was in the film days!! Probably starting out with a relatively cheap Pentax 645 digitral. (compared to Hasselblad, Pentax can be a leader here ) For studio work and fine art in some form. Action will be shot with Nikon or Canon, or maybe a fast K1 Pentax someday, but why bother, it will be a good market for 39MP cameras. And then there will be , as it is already: The best DSLR with good lenses from Pentax to nearly half the price of Nikon and Canon, probably climbing to 2/3ds.

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03-03-2007, 03:58 PM   #4
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Good to know...645 seems key to comeback!

QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I have spoken to several Pro friends of mine about my making the switch from you know who. Several of them are waiting on the 645D before going full steam ahead and leaving their present camps.. Some are waiting for 1.3 or FF and others are waiting till some of the rough edges are smoothed out. Some others want my feedback before doing so. I, as usual jumped in head first! It's been a fun ride.

Ben
I know a lot of landscape pros would love to see a reasonably priced Pentax 645D with the 31MP sensor. There is no way a 36mm camera could hope to compete and if its significantly cheaper than the competition I can see a bright future.

I would kind of hope they would ship the 18MP one as well. It has a lot more DR (75dB vs 70dB) and lower noise and would be a fabulous wedding/studio rig and could be cheap enough to appeal directly to 1Ds users.

Ben, I dont know your feelings but since you successfully produce excellent work with a 10MP camera, I would like to know if you could see an advantage in a cheaper 18MP 645 selling alongside the 31MP version?

03-03-2007, 04:56 PM   #5
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18 or 31?

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
I know a lot of landscape pros would love to see a reasonably priced Pentax 645D with the 31MP sensor. There is no way a 36mm camera could hope to compete and if its significantly cheaper than the competition I can see a bright future.

I would kind of hope they would ship the 18MP one as well. It has a lot more DR (75dB vs 70dB) and lower noise and would be a fabulous wedding/studio rig and could be cheap enough to appeal directly to 1Ds users.

Ben, I dont know your feelings but since you successfully produce excellent work with a 10MP camera, I would like to know if you could see an advantage in a cheaper 18MP 645 selling alongside the 31MP version?
Quite frankly, my dream camera would be a fixed body with the option to upgrade sensors as required. Kind of the difference between using a 120 back on a 4x5 Sinar or Horseman Camera's or choosing 4x5 sheet film.. I still consider all fixed sensor camera's as disposable camera's. Expensive, but disposable none the less. My advice to today's user is buy good glass, because the bodies will be obsolete over a relatively short period of time compared to analogue camera's. Yes, I would love to see the option of choosing between an 18 and 31 mega pixel camera. For many 31 mega pixels could be overkill. Perhaps the choice of choosing your preferred resolution depending on a specific requirement would be nice. Perhaps a choice between 31.8 to 28, 24, 20, 16, 12 to 8 for example, on the same sensor. For my magazine work 8 to 12 mega pixel is more than sufficient. I especially appreciate the mobility of DSLR 35mm type format camera's. I hate tripods. If the 645D's ergonomics can be relatively compact and came in at a sub 9k$ which it might, it may become the Pro Photographer's Panacea.

Best Wishes
Ben

Last edited by benjikan; 03-03-2007 at 05:06 PM.
03-03-2007, 06:25 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Quite frankly, my dream camera would be a fixed body with the option to upgrade sensors as required. Kind of the difference between using a 120 back on a 4x5 Sinar or Horseman Camera's or choosing 4x5 sheet film.. I still consider all fixed sensor camera's as disposable camera's. Expensive, but disposable none the less. My advice to today's user is buy good glass, because the bodies will be obsolete over a relatively short period of time compared to analogue camera's. Yes, I would love to see the option of choosing between an 18 and 31 mega pixel camera. For many 31 mega pixels could be overkill. Perhaps the choice of choosing your preferred resolution depending on a specific requirement would be nice. Perhaps a choice between 31.8 to 28, 24, 20, 16, 12 to 8 for example, on the same sensor. For my magazine work 8 to 12 mega pixel is more than sufficient. I especially appreciate the mobility of DSLR 35mm type format camera's. I hate tripods. If the 645D's ergonomics can be relatively compact and came in at a sub 9k$ which it might, it may become the Pro Photographer's Panacea.

Best Wishes
Ben
Agree replaceable backs/sensors sound good in principle, and the situation is woefully wasteful as it is. However I gather the cost of developing the full electronics package is so high that a replaceable back is not much cheaper than the full camera and the need to package it all in a compact, automonous system means that building a custom chassis each time is the only option. The optical path systems however can be carried over from one to the next but they essentially become disposable.

But I do hope Pentax see the light and the opportunity for a low cost 645 system alongside the flagship. I would probably be interested if they could, but we are talking sub $7k here, not sub $9k. I am certain that a lot of 1Ds touting pros would be interested at that price.

I have no need for 31 MP although I'm sure others do.

Either way it would be nice to see Pentax back in the game at last with all guns blazing. Whatever you shoot, competition is good for the industry - the Canikon duopoly does noone any favours.
03-04-2007, 07:15 AM   #7
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I would love to see the 18mp 645 with an adapter that would allow using our FA lens on it. This would require optics to let the lens focus to infinity. The camera could then be set to "crop mode" (like one of the Nikons). This crop mode would be FF35! Canon would have a fit seeing those ads. What fun. Pentax could end up owning the 645 market with a well thought out camera at a good price. Hope they do well.
thanks
barondla
03-04-2007, 11:33 AM   #8
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I wish it were possible to do hardware upgrades to the bodies. Like replacing your processor in a cpu, you could go and buy a new sensor for your camera body to up the megapixels. 39 mp is kinda excessive but that whole process of higher mp will never end. I figure as long as the mp count comes close to 35 mm or equal to 35 mm, it's good enough for me. 9 k for a camera is nuts.

03-04-2007, 12:14 PM   #9
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perhaps there should be a "mere mortal forum" and a "Pro" forum..

as a "mere mortal" i sometimes think i dont belong in this one..

trog
03-04-2007, 03:28 PM   #10
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Mere Mortal...

QuoteOriginally posted by trog100 Quote
perhaps there should be a "mere mortal forum" and a "Pro" forum..

as a "mere mortal" i sometimes think i dont belong in this one..

trog
I think I hit the John five times today..Now if that isn't being a Mere Mortal, I don't know what is...
03-04-2007, 04:55 PM   #11
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"I think I hit the John five times today..Now if that isn't being a Mere Mortal, I don't know what is..."

it could be a "pro" with the sh-ts.. he he he

trog
03-04-2007, 05:06 PM   #12
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A pro is a person who makes their living from photography. Not all pros use hyper-expensive medium format backs, many of us use whatever we feel is a quality camera that produces great results.

Pentax has always been known for the quality of their lenses. They mostly marketed medium format gear to professionals, but plenty of us also used the smaller (35mm) cameras because of the quality of the lenses.

So now with the K10D, we can have a digital body that can function in many different situations. I use it in my studio, ten megapixels is certainly plenty for most magazine and commercial use.

If the 645D ever should materialize, Pentax will have a grand slam. It's all in the lenses, and Pentax is a lens company.
03-04-2007, 06:13 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by trog100 Quote
perhaps there should be a "mere mortal forum" and a "Pro" forum..

as a "mere mortal" i sometimes think i dont belong in this one..

trog
I can certainly relate.

If you look up "Photo Pro" in the dictionary, there will be many pictures there. Mine, however, will not be amongst them.
03-04-2007, 09:31 PM   #14
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I would love it if pentax released a couple levels of 645D, an 18mp entry level model and a 31mp higher level model.
03-05-2007, 03:20 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cideway Quote
I would love it if pentax released a couple levels of 645D, an 18mp entry level model and a 31mp higher level model.
The difference between an 18MP and 31MP 645D will not just be cost. In theory there should be little difference between the cost of the sensors as they use the same amount of silicon "real estate" and probably have a similar yeild in production. The difference in sensor cost is probably called profit margin!

There are many other significant differences which will impact the overall performance of the camera. If one considers two bodies having the same control set and processor, then, in the main, they would be as follows:

31MP v. 18MP
Lower dynamic range, approx 70dB v 75dB (Kodak's specs)
Poorer noise, approx 1 stop worse
Higher resolution
Slower operation, approx 1.0 fps v 1.5 fps (Kodaks specs for the sensor)
Longer write/read times
Bigger file sizes

At the moment the cost difference between the Phase One P21 and P30 backs, that use the same Kodak sensors, is around $5K with costs of about $12K and $17K respectively. If the same $ difference is expected, then a 31MP 645D will be circa $12K - $14K instead of $7K - $9K, i.e. almost double.

Therefore the answers to some basic questions are:
  1. I would be interested in a Pentax 645 system at 18MP for a similar price to a top end 35mm based system (eg 1DsMk2) with really good dynamic range.
  2. I would be interested in a Pentax 645 system at 31MP for about double the price of the top end 35mm system with really good resolution.
  3. I would potentially be interested in both if the performance was comparable to existing MF systems.
  4. I wouldn't consider a Pentax 645 system because I think other systems have more potential.
If Pentax can manage to build a 31MP 645D with a very small premium in cost of under $1K, then it boils down to the performance differences outlined above.

There is of course another answer, which is:

"I will never be able to afford such an expensive system", which is where most of us will be!
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