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12-16-2019, 05:27 AM   #151
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It reminds me some comments of a member here stating that he skipped FF and is only into APSC and MF formats. It is mostly a matter of budget...

12-16-2019, 06:01 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I value more ISO capabilities than reach because I have enough reach shooting with full frame. But, that's just me and for me it works. I have the possibility to shoot with both formats and as I said, I never choose APS-C for wildlife over full frame.
Thanks for chiming in, that's an interesting line of reasoning.
12-16-2019, 06:04 AM   #153
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In the Pentax world we basically have three digital formats. For what it's worth...

I have cameras of APSC and FF. The K1 is essential to me as I can use ultra wide angle lenses with good DR that my real estate client is happy with. Similarly for product shots with the DFA 50mm macro I get lots of usable pixels to work with. I also like the K-1 and 77mm Limited as a portrait combination. I would not be happy with APSC for these jobs. The 645Z would be cumbersome and overkill for many of the FF photos I take. The K1 nails it for me - it's perfect.

However, though I print and sell to A1 size using either FF and APSC, the choice is harder to call. The K3 is extremely capable and with smaller lenses it makes a nicer, convenient set-up, but when printing to A1 the difference shows. The fine tonal graduations and the K1s improved capabilities in post make it superior to the K3 at A1 size. At A2, the K1 v K3 differences are marginal - the K1 does have the edge in its subtler rendering of tonal variations. These differences, however, are mostly irrelevant as it's the subject that sells. So for my landscape work, I'd say the K1 is better for large (A1 and A2, just) prints, but the K3 is probably a more useful landscape camera.

As I see it the K1/FF camera is a perfect balance, whereas the APSC and 645Z are better at the extremes. Quite different from the OP's initial statement.
12-16-2019, 06:34 AM   #154
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I am not bothered much to go into detail in this discussion.
Disappointed that several of you missed the part about lenses.
Still have no reaction about why 8X10 cameras are still being used.

@ Dan Rentea,

You chose to bring up video.
Video happens to be my business.
Large rooms are lit using lots of HMI units to reach an acceptable light level for video cameras.
That is how professionals light these kind of sets.

We are discussing photography here, I fail to see what video has to do with that.

12-16-2019, 06:50 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fluegel Quote
@ Dan Rentea,

You chose to bring up video.
Video happens to be my business.
Large rooms are lit using lots of HMI units to reach an acceptable light level for video cameras.
That is how professionals light these kind of sets.

We are discussing photography here, I fail to see what video has to do with that.
I wasn't talking about video at all. I don't even know how to activate video on my camera. The videos were posted only for you to see the conditions where a photographer has to shoot at a romanian wedding. And then I showed you an image from a real wedding with the settings and the lights used asking you to tell me what you have done to keep the ISO at 100 or 400 starting from what Biz-engineer said, comment which you agree with.
12-16-2019, 06:51 AM   #156
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Lenses are lenses. In fact, the variety of 35mm lenses is much broader than for larger formats. Please point to the lenses that do not have an equivalent in smaller formats... as I said I'm interested.

No one is denying that 8x10 cameras are being used; the questions are "by whom" and "for what" - information that was not provided. Without them, a sweeping statement like that is pretty much useless.

I can also say that smartphone cameras are better than large formats, because you can take pictures you could never take with an 8x10 camera. See how it works?

In any case, I'll bite; 8x10 cameras are used because it is simpler to get to f/64 or so, keeping everything in more or less perfect focus, and to print very, very large for prints that include a lot of highlight detail (as film generally behaves better there). In my case, I would never use them because it's not worth the gigantic hassle, so they are as good as useless - a camera that does not take the picture is a terrible camera.
12-16-2019, 07:01 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I wasn't talking about video at all. I don't even know how to activate video on my camera. The videos were posted only for you to see the conditions where a photographer has to shoot at a romanian wedding. And then I showed you an image from a real wedding with the settings and the lights used asking you to tell me what you have done to keep the ISO at 100 or 400 starting from what Biz-engineer said, comment which you agree with.
Why post a video when a screen shot is all you need to make your point?

12-16-2019, 07:05 AM   #158
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Since when does a screen shot convey the changing light conditions?
12-16-2019, 07:08 AM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fluegel Quote
Why post a video when a screen shot is all you need to make your point?
I posted both just to make sure people understand. That being said, ignore all the videos and tell me how would you managed to keep ISO at 100, 200 or 400 with a slow lens and a GN60 flash in the situation like the one from the screenshot? Because that was what you agreed with when you responded to Biz-engineer comment.

---------- Post added 12-16-19 at 02:17 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Since when does a screen shot convey the changing light conditions?
I make it even simple for him and I remove the changing colors and light conditions from context (like there were in the first video). Let's say he has only the purple light for the entire wedding dance and the light is constant like in this screenshot. From my experience, these conditions translated in settings will be: 1/125s, f2.8, ISO between 3200 and 4000. The shutter speed of 1/125s is a little risky due to movement of the dancers, but let's say it will be enough to freeze the moment in those splits of seconds when they changing the dance position. I'm curious to see how he will manage to give me ISO 400 with an f4 lens and a GN60 flash or flashes without ruining the entire dance atmosphere.


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 12-16-2019 at 07:42 AM.
12-16-2019, 07:52 AM   #160
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As to the Why 8x10? The answer greatly depends on the specific 8x10 technology. Film camera with drum scanning of negatives are used for a number of reasons including stupidly high resolution. Contact printed 8x10's...

This camera would be lovely for landscape work as well as gritty realistic portraits or dreams atmosphere shots. The World's First 8x10 Large Format Digital Camera is Yours for $106,000

However as lovely as it would be... It seems rather impractical.
12-16-2019, 07:58 AM   #161
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Going a step further...

Full-Frame Digital vs Large Format Film: A Side-by-Side Comparison

This shows what 4"x5" film can do. 8x10 is even more of the same in advantages and disadvantages.

Digital versions other than the one I posted often are sensor arrays with some associated complications.
12-16-2019, 08:02 AM   #162
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My own thinking is that real mf digital, not cropped mf is about as large as it's practical to use for most casual photographers, and mf cropped is probably more practical but really mainly for someone with existing investments in glass. FF seems very close for to the limited size differential and the higher degree of technology advancements in FF due to speed of model introductions, competition, and scale of sales.
12-16-2019, 08:07 AM - 2 Likes   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
...MF is especially good for making XL prints, and hads no advantage for printing in a magazine.....
This is not entirely true because you assume that the only advantage of MF is its high resolution that enables XL printing. That's only one dimension of the MF advantage.

If you downsample a 16-bit 150 MPix Phase One image to something like an 8 MPix file for A4 printing at 300 ppi in a magazine, it seems like a waste of pixels but it's not. It creates an image file with probably about 17-18 EV of DR. The result smokes the pants off APS-C for highlight protection, shadow recovery, high-fidelity color, and high-iSO work. That downsampled Phase One file will be much much more tolerant of extreme processing than the best APS-C image.

To a first approximation, any photographic system that can gather more total light can create both bigger and smoother images. MF can provide both more pixels and more bits of data. The total amount of information in an image is strictly upper-bounded by the total number of photons measured. That's not to say that lens aberrations, flare, read noise, dark current, and other disturbances can't impair the information content of an image but it does imply that if the system collects fewer total photons, there's no way it can resolve as many pixels or as many bits of light/color.
12-16-2019, 08:10 AM   #164
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Sure, oversize the sensor to the ridiculous proportions of an 8x10 camera and you will get unparalleled resolution and unusably-thin DOF (or second long exposures if you want to have more than a milimiter in focus and there's half a cloud in the sky). I, however, do not typically enjoy having a briefcase-sized camera
12-16-2019, 08:20 AM   #165
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For anyone interested in a thorough comparison between film and digital resolution, here is a very enlightening article on the subject. It proves that 8x10 and 4x5 format film can beat anything digital in terms of resolution:

36 Megapixels vs 6x7 Velvia | Film vs Digital | On Landscape
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