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10-27-2008, 08:18 PM   #61
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Marc,

I forgot to add, that ther would be a learning curve, both in the way VR behaves differently from SR and it is different, not better or worse, just different.

And the Autocam 3500 does take some serious reading and shooting to get them most out of, it is very flexible and configurable, but also leaves a lot more of the decisions with the user, thus there is a little more to it than just selecting AF-C and focal point.
Do you want to use 1, 9, 21, 51 or 51(with 3D colour tracking) focus points how long should the AF-C lock on time be?

A lot of room for user error, but once you find a way to configure it to suit your subject matter it is scary fast and accurate.

10-27-2008, 09:20 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by dantuyhoa Quote
FWIW , I have always valued Duplo's posts . He is a long time Pentax user and I did learn quite a thing or two from his advices .
Thank you for the kind words.

I somehow missed your kind compliment when returning to the thread.
A most appreciated compliment.
10-28-2008, 07:42 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
And apparently not mention that all we want is a better Pentax, and are willing to pay for it. If other people aren't willing to pay for better cameras, they don't have to. That's why Canon Rebels, Nikon D90s and Pentax K20's exist. It would be nice to be able to be able to choose to buy a K mount camera that can play in the big boy's sandbox without getting sand kicked in it's face
I think the point being made here is that the K20 can hold its own, dollar for dollar. Maybe if you are talking about spending $10k on a camera system then the Pentax is going to be outclassed, but that has as much to do with available lenses as anything else.

Better or worse doesn't matter as much as if it is good enough. If I can consistently do the jobs I'm hired to do and get images that meet my standards, I don't see a problem. There's no return on investment in nicer equipment if I'm already producing the pictures I want and need.

There is a place in the market that Pentax isn't choosing to compete in, which is the sports photographer/super expensive equipment buyer market. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, and it doesn't make them less of a camera company. There are award winning wedding photographers that shoot outdated Rebels, and in many cases cameras that the K20 beats in every criteria. I trust that they are using the best tool for them, and I don't think we can really claim that they would produce better pictures with a more expensive system.
10-28-2008, 08:30 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eigengrau Quote
I think the point being made here is that the K20 can hold its own, dollar for dollar. Maybe if you are talking about spending $10k on a camera system then the Pentax is going to be outclassed, but that has as much to do with available lenses as anything else.
For the most part, I am talking about being able to spend another $500.00 on a camera body, and get something with D300 performance in a K-Mount camera

QuoteQuote:
Better or worse doesn't matter as much as if it is good enough. If I can consistently do the jobs I'm hired to do and get images that meet my standards, I don't see a problem. There's no return on investment in nicer equipment if I'm already producing the pictures I want and need.
I also consistently satisfy my clients needs, but to a certain extent I have to do it by being somewhat choosy about which clients I take on. Especially now that cameras like the D3 or D700 are on the market and make the high ISO imaging qualities of the K20 look like yesterday's lunch.

QuoteQuote:
There is a place in the market that Pentax isn't choosing to compete in, which is the sports photographer/super expensive equipment buyer market. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that, and it doesn't make them less of a camera company. There are award winning wedding photographers that shoot outdated Rebels, and in many cases cameras that the K20 beats in every criteria. I trust that they are using the best tool for them, and I don't think we can really claim that they would produce better pictures with a more expensive system.
I'm sure you are right, but I'm not sure if this is a valid argument or a straw man.
When I bought Pentax, and I made a very significant monetary investment in the company, they were at, or very near the top performing cameras of the day. Any time one buys into a system, there is a leap of faith being made, that being that the company is going to attempt to maintain their competitiveness.
They have failed miserably at that.

And I still don't see why there is so much resistance on this forum to a better Pentax. It seems to me it would be better for everyone that uses the brand.


Last edited by Wheatfield; 10-28-2008 at 11:05 AM.
10-28-2008, 09:41 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
And I still don't see why there is so much resistance on this forum to a better Pentax. It seems to me it would be better for everyone that uses the brand.
I don't see the resistance to a better Pentax. I see a resistance to the threads that start out as complaints about Pentax because their camera can't compete with more expensive alternatives. Most people here believe that Pentax is a good value in their market segment (based on price). That doesn't mean that there isn't room for Pentax models above and below their current market segment. However, the reality is that Pentax has chosen not to compete at every segment.

Discussions about new entry level Pentax (smaller, more compact), or new high-end Pentax (FF, faster FPS and AF), or how Pentax markets themselves are all fine by me. I just get tired of the constant bashing of current Pentax models by comparing them to cameras outside of their range.

It's like the people that buy a house next to the airport and then complain about the noise.

BTW, Wheatfield, I do understand the frustration for someone like yourself that bought into a system and now you feel like you're being left behind. That would p*ss me off, too. However, the vast majority of these posts are from people that are new to dSLRs or are not otherwise hugely invested in a system. They bought camera A, their buddy bought camera B, and they're p*ssed that their camera doesn't beat their buddy's camera, even though their buddy's camera cost $1200 more (in the D700 vs K20 example here). That's just complaining because someone else one-upped their one-upsmanship.

Last edited by rfortson; 10-28-2008 at 10:01 AM.
10-28-2008, 09:55 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
I just get tired of the constant bashing of current Pentax models by comparing them to cameras outside of their range.
A very easy solution to that would be for them to make a camera that is outside of their present range, no?
Right now, the K20 is fairly comparable to Nikon & Canon's third tier cameras.
So what happens when the competitions third tier cameras supersede the K20, and all of a sudden it is comparable to Nikon and Canon's fourth tier cameras? Do we lower the bar for Pentax yet again?
I suspect this question will be answered sooner rather than later, and I bet the clueless apologists will be out in full sway as their beloved camera brand becomes a memory.
Pentax have to live with these comparisons, whether consumers who are happy with K20 specs think it fair or not.
They are a camera company, not a special needs student.
The alternative would be to do something very unique, such as make a competitive camera aimed at the other players second tier.
10-28-2008, 10:14 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
And I still don't see why there is so much resistance on this forum to a better Pentax. It seems to me it would be better for everyone that uses the brand.
I don't think there is resistance. I would love to see Pentax enter competitively into sports photography, and increase their AF and high ISO performance. I would love a FF body.

However, I don't think we should get down on Pentax if they choose not to. It doesn't make it a worse platform, it just limits their presence in some markets.

It seems to me that camera companies have become like electronics companies, in that they are judged on who is on top - look at CPUs, graphics cards, hard drives, TVs - but ultimately I don't think that is the tradition of photography, or Pentax, as much. I think they look at the camera more as an artist's tool than as another piece of disposable consumer electronics, and so we see things that really are nice for photographers - affordable high quality lenses, nice viewfinders, handy functions like quick-shift and the raw button, compatibility with older equipment. I think their latest crop of bodies play to their strengths well, and we shouldn't get upset at them because they aren't cloning and competing directly with the bigger players.

If there is resistance, there is resistance to saying that Pentax isn't making good cameras. They are, in the niche they choose to participate in.
10-28-2008, 10:35 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eigengrau Quote
I think they look at the camera more as an artist's tool than as another piece of disposable consumer electronics
do you believe in what you are saying ?

10-28-2008, 12:26 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
A very easy solution to that would be for them to make a camera that is outside of their present range, no?
Well, that's one solution. I'm satisfied that they compete well in the market segments that they choose. Whether or not they move outside of those ranges is another argument. If I thought Canon, Nikon or any of the other brands supplied more bang for the buck in the market segment I'm shopping in, then I'd give them a longer look. However everytime I look, I'm satisfied with Pentax.

I don't think Pentax is out to be everything to everybody. I think they can be successful in the niche they've chosen, and I've voted with my wallet. I guess others disagree.
10-28-2008, 01:17 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote

I don't think Pentax is out to be everything to everybody. I think they can be successful in the niche they've chosen, and I've voted with my wallet. I guess others disagree.
I'm not sure if the low end to lower mid range segment can be regarded as a niche. It seems to me that is more like a flock, and every time someone comes out with a new camera that goes unanswered, Pentax is flying a little lower, and has a little less visibility.
I hope it works out well for you. I voted with my wallet 25 years ago when they were at the top of the heap and were competing in the market I inhabit. I'm just more than a little disappointing that they seem to have abandoned my market segment after I supported them with several tens of thousands of dollars in camera and lens purchases.
10-28-2008, 03:13 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I voted with my wallet 25 years ago when they were at the top of the heap and were competing in the market I inhabit. I'm just more than a little disappointing that they seem to have abandoned my market segment after I supported them with several tens of thousands of dollars in camera and lens purchases.
I can fully understand your frustration. Didn't Canon do the same to their users in the past when they abandoned a popular mount for a new mount? Not sure it's really the same, but I imagine the users of the old system were chapped.
10-28-2008, 03:45 PM   #72
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I wanted to comment on some posts here again.... but it's pointless, sorry guys...
10-28-2008, 04:14 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
I can fully understand your frustration. Didn't Canon do the same to their users in the past when they abandoned a popular mount for a new mount? Not sure it's really the same, but I imagine the users of the old system were chapped.
Does the word "screwed" mean anything to you? Canon pretty much abandoned their entire user base when they changed from the FD mount to the EF mount. Pentax tried a somewhat similar approach when the *istD was introduced. The new mount doesn't have an aperture cam follower, and so non A series lenses couldn't be metered with.
They took a beating from their user base, and whether this affected things or not, I don't know, but the first firmware revision allowed for the green button metering kludge with non A series lenses.
A friend of mine, who was a long time Canon user, shooting with any of three F1s or a couple of T90s. He just recently decided to buy a DSLR, and guess what, he went with a D300.
He wasn't going to give Canon any more of his money.

To be fair, and I've said this elsewhere, I do like the K20, and I do get very good results from it, providing I am careful to stay well within its operational envelope.
Unfortunately, I often find it's operational envelope to be rather limited.
In the studio, at ISO 100 and using strobes that only allow one shot every couple of seconds, the K20 is excellent.
If I am trying to track something that is moving, even relatively slowly, at distance, the K20 fails more often than it succeeds. If I want to boost the ISO for available light, I can't go past 1000 without getting objectionable noise and VPN.

It may do well enough in it's particular price category, but it's price category doesn't allow for a good enough camera, and as Nikon has proven with the D300, it doesn't really cost very much more to make a small sensor camera that does perform.
And while Pentax may be doing well enough bringing customers in at the bottom of the price/performance ladder, they are doing an atrocious job of supporting long term customers or photographers who want to have an upgrade path.
For a lot of people, the K20 just isn't good enough often enough, and a lot of people who buy Pentax apparently leave the brand because they outgrow what is available to them.
It's really too bad, the lens quality is definitely there, but the camera bodies underperform the lenses by a rather large margin.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 10-28-2008 at 04:20 PM.
10-28-2008, 06:02 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
<snip>
For a lot of people, the K20 just isn't good enough often enough, and a lot of people who buy Pentax apparently leave the brand because they outgrow what is available to them.
<snip>
You would do your argument more justice if you didn't try to speak for anybody but yourself. The K20D is just fine for me, thank you.
10-28-2008, 08:45 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
You would do your argument more justice if you didn't try to speak for anybody but yourself. The K20D is just fine for me, thank you.
Where did I say everybody?
If you don't want a better Pentax, then if and when they make one, don't buy it. I won't force you to, honest.
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