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01-08-2020, 07:50 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by kypfer Quote
. .. My point being, upgrade by all means if there are features on a new body you will benefit from, the superior autofocus and increased sensitivity are very noticeable, especially on the KP, but if you're not reaching the capabilities of your existing camera, an "upgrade" will simply give you higher resolution examples of what you're taking already . . .
good points to consider

I was not looking to move from my K 3 and K3 II to the KP

I was lucky enough to win the KP which does have good points but I still have much to do to master the K 3 II

[ the K 3 is for sale because I cannot justify holding on to it ]

01-08-2020, 07:54 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by othar Quote
My K-3 is the first DSLR I own so I don't know how your DA 18-55mm lens would look in comparison between both senors. But when I pixel peep at images from my 18-55mm lens on my K-3 the corners don't look that good, the images are still usable (also for prints up to 30cm x 45cm as long as you don't crop the image too much) but the 24 MP sensor clearly outperformes the resolving power of the lens and it will be worse with pixel shift.

While the 18-135mm lens is a highly regarded lens for general purposes I am not convinced it is that much better than the 18-55mm lens regarding resolving power in the corners. If it has to be a zoom lens I would probably get a DA 16-85mm lens, but I think to fully utilize pixel shift you would need a good prime lens in addition to your collection.
Hrm... I suppose what I could do is compare and contrast my older 35-80mm FA lens) with my current DA18-55mm lens - theres about the same age difference between them...ish. It won't tell me what effect changing the pixel density of the sensor will have on the final image, but it will let me see the differences between the different generations of lenses - which is approximately what I'll experience if I upgrade my current kit lens.

Side-note - that FA lens would look pretty smexy on that silver KP body... very retro-looking, even if it's not making the most out that camera body!




QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
who would say such a thing

Question 1
what is it that your current gear isn't capable of that you want to improve - looking at both body/lenses

Question 2
what type of upgrade of the camera body would achieve what you are lacking -

the KP or another body that might be available new or used at a cheaper price, K 3 II or other ?

Question 3
which should you upgrade - body or lens - remembering that the lens will be useful ( hopefully ) if and when you do upgrade the camera body

Question 4
what is your budget

Question 5
what is your time line do you need to act now or can you wait

the K new ( replacement or improvement on K 3 and K 3 II ) is coming ( and so is the next total solar eclipse, but the date of that is known ) and its arrival may affect prices of camera bodies used and new

speaking personally I have yet to find the magic equipment - camera body or lens that can guaranty that Operating Error can ever be completely eliminated
QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
in my limited experience, and you can check the info here under " lenses " , most if not all " bundled " lenses don't rate well on their own

it is an encouragement for someone to buy a " deal " - camera body + lens

where the lens offered may not be one that is rated well on its own
Q1:
A) I'd like to be able to crop a little more - BUT now that I've had a think about it, a lot of that is going to be dependent on optical resolution - the ability to resolve small details: let us suppose I photograph a dot - the edges will be a little blurry - if I double the pixel resolution, the edges are precisely as blurry as they were before: but it instead takes up twice as many pixels to render that blur on screen: meaning that although I am, in a literal sense, cropping more pixels off, the image and thus the final crop of that image remains the same - if I am correct in my thinking, upping the sensor-resolution won't allow me to resolve smaller details.

B) Better IQ in general. Assuming that I am in a position to take a "perfect" picture, the body will only improve IQ if the lens isn't limiting the system - in other words, in my case, the lens is acting as the IQ-bottleneck. I could have the world's best sensor on the other side, and it will still be limited by whatever is coming through the lens.

C) Increased low-light performance - of my shots, 1/3 take place at night, 1/6 macro, and the rest in decent light. That's not including astrophotography, which, due to stacking takes up a huge proportion of my total shot-count! In fact, I am very happy with my K-50 for astro - though I am still a novice in that particular field!

D) Tilting screen. I would usually list this as a "comfort feature" - but I find myself wishing I had a tilting screen more and more of late (and not just for astro, either)!

That's it - and only the tilting screen is directly dependent on the body. Everything else is "something that would be nice to have" - the additional customisability, the very slight increase in burst-speed, the red-night-mode, wifi-tethering, etc - great "comfort" features, but don't really affect the pictures Im taking.


Q2:
As per above, it would seem that a body will only improve things if it isn't being held back by the glass attached to it.

Q2b:
I did also consider a K3-ii, but, all things considered, I somewhat preferred the KP - but again, that's mostly due to comfort features like the lower profile and the extra customisable knob, the higher ISO and low light performance, integral wifi, etc.

Q3:
It would appear, as per Q1, that the lens is most likely the limiting factor in my system (excusing myself of course!).

Q4:
I currently have £200, plus £50-each-month. I would most likely be looking at a financing option or putting on a low-interest credit card.

Q5:
It can definitely wait! I have the K-50, and it works very well



PS - Regarding your "magic equipment", I'm afraid the error margin is "plus-or-minus 1x human".

Adding that into the SlyFoxian equation gives us "Photography == ((Knowledge + Experience) x Equipment) ± human"...

I rearranged it such that knowledge and experience are somewhat interchangeable, and as long as you have either, you'll be able to do photography provided you have the equipment. The original slyfoxian equation added the elements, which allowed for the peculiarity of still doing photography even if you have no equipment, provided you have the knowledge and experience to compensate. The rearranged SlyFoxian equation follows that equipment works as a "force multiplier" of knowledge and experience and will not function on it's own - and likewise, not having any equipment means you've been doing photography wrong all this time.

The human (unit-of-error) is a function of the the PICNIC (problem-in-chair, not-in-camera), and the RTFM (read-the....manual). Typical values can range from "Whoops..." to "...CRIKEY!" depending on who is performing the photography. That crater was there when I got here. Honest.
01-08-2020, 07:56 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by rogerstg Quote
IMO, that's the way to go. Despite some looking down their nose at kit lenses, in my 40+ years hobbyist experience, kit lenses give the most bang for the buck and rate pretty well. . . . .
I didn't mean to say that all " kit " lenses are bad

I just meant to check out what is being offered and see what you think of the lens first
01-08-2020, 08:08 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by cprobertson1 Quote

Adding that into the SlyFoxian equation gives us "Photography == ((Knowledge + Experience) x Equipment) ± human"...

I rearranged it such that knowledge and experience are somewhat interchangeable, and as long as you have either, you'll be able to do photography provided you have the equipment. The original slyfoxian equation added the elements, which allowed for the peculiarity of still doing photography even if you have no equipment, provided you have the knowledge and experience to compensate. The rearranged SlyFoxian equation follows that equipment works as a "force multiplier" of knowledge and experience and will not function on it's own - and likewise, not having any equipment means you've been doing photography wrong all this time.
. . .
the flaw in my " equation " has never been pointed out before and one I obviously didn't consider

however I often suggest that one does put down the camera/lens and take the " photo " with the Original Equipment - Mark One eyeball and store in your memory bank [ brain ]

so perhaps subconsciously I was thinking of that when I did the formula ??

the point being expressed by me is that it is a combination of knowledge, equipment, and experience ( skill )

how to express that idea in a " formula " is, obviously, not my strong point

01-08-2020, 08:15 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by cprobertson1 Quote
Hrm... I suppose what I could do is compare and contrast my older 35-80mm FA lens) with my current DA18-55mm lens - theres about the same age difference between them...ish. It won't tell me what effect changing the pixel density of the sensor will have on the final image, but it will let me see the differences between the different generations of lenses - which is approximately what I'll experience if I upgrade my current kit lens.Side-note - that FA lens would look pretty smexy on that silver KP body... very retro-looking, even if it's not making the most out that camera body!
I am not that sure about the FA 35-80mm lens (I accquired my F 35-80mm lens just recently and haven't tested it thoroughly yet) but my F 35-70mm lens is sharper than my DA 18-55mm lens in the overlapping range, so you might experience a lesser difference than you might expect.
01-08-2020, 08:40 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
the flaw in my " equation " has never been pointed out before and one I obviously didn't consider

however I often suggest that one does put down the camera/lens and take the " photo " with the Original Equipment - Mark One eyeball and store in your memory bank [ brain ]

so perhaps subconsciously I was thinking of that when I did the formula ??

the point being expressed by me is that it is a combination of knowledge, equipment, and experience ( skill )

how to express that idea in a " formula " is, obviously, not my strong point
Hahha, I was just having fun anyway xD I suspect the long-form of the formula is far, far more complex! In fact, I'm pretty sure it touches on chaos theory...




Anyway! Back to the KP!

I'm glad you've brought up the lens issue, as it would appear that I may in fact benefit more from a lens purchase before a body purchase: and before I buy a lens, I want to get the most out of my K-50 setup, to the point that I am certain that improving equipment will have a quantifiable effect on improving the quality of my work - in other words, I want to be certain that the camera setup is acting as the bottleneck, and not myself.

For instance, do I believe I'm making the most of my K-50 body, from a purely technical perspective? Probably not - it gets used with vintage glass and kit lenses: improving the body will still leave that same glass delivering light to the sensor - meaning that unless I upgrade the glass, any improvements in the body will be marginal.

In contrast, upgrading the glass means that the quality of the light on the sensor can be improved: which, depending on how much of an upgrade occurs, may be pretty substantial. IT would seem that the ability to capture that light is secondary to gathering that light in the first place.

So: I think the plan should be lens >> body - and in the meantime, I can paly around with my existing gear and try to eke the most out of it!

Experience-time!

---------- Post added 2020-01-08 at 08:48 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by othar Quote
I am not that sure about the FA 35-80mm lens (I accquired my F 35-80mm lens just recently and haven't tested it thoroughly yet) but my F 35-70mm lens is sharper than my DA 18-55mm lens in the overlapping range, so you might experience a lesser difference than you might expect.
Hrm! Interesting! I'll need to experiment!

---------- Post added 2020-01-08 at 09:06 ----------

Having a quick look at lens options - reckon the following would be good ugprades for my kit lenses?

I wont be buying these now, of course - I want to save up first

-HD Pentax-DA 16-85mm F3.5-5.6
-HD Pentax-DA 55-300mm F4.5-6.3 PLM

I have seen the 16-85 bundled as a kit lens for the KP, but there was quite a bit of markup on the price (it was cheaper to buy them separate - by about £300!)

The DA 18-135mm seems to be the more popular kit lens - but I think buying the two-zoom lenses separately gives me greater versatility, and should last me longer overall: which means saving money in the long-run. Do you reckon that's the way to go? Lens upgrades, then a body upgrade?
01-08-2020, 09:18 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by cprobertson1 Quote
. . . I'm glad you've brought up the lens issue, as it would appear that I may in fact benefit more from a lens purchase before a body purchase: and before I buy a lens, I want to get the most out of my K-50 setup, to the point that I am certain that improving equipment will have a quantifiable effect on improving the quality of my work . . .

In contrast, upgrading the glass means that the quality of the light on the sensor can be improved: which, depending on how much of an upgrade occurs, may be pretty substantial. IT would seem that the ability to capture that light is secondary to gathering that light in the first place.

So: I think the plan should be lens >> body - and in the meantime, I can paly around with my existing gear and try to eke the most out of it!

. . .

Having a quick look at lens options - reckon the following would be good ugprades for my kit lenses?

I wont be buying these now, of course - I want to save up first

-HD Pentax-DA 16-85mm F3.5-5.6
-HD Pentax-DA 55-300mm F4.5-6.3 PLM . . .
I claim no expertise in photography

I just post a lot

but if you look at the history of Pentax glass

a lot of good vintage lenses are still being used, some of which are still being produced [ FA limiteds as an example ], and may be available at a savings if you accept " experienced "

so I would urge you to further research that option

if you decide you don't want " experienced " the newer lenses clearly deserve a good look as well

__________________________________
QuoteQuote:
-HD Pentax-DA 16-85mm F3.5-5.6
-HD Pentax-DA 55-300mm F4.5-6.3 PLM
. . .


those lenses have good reports

be advised:

QuoteQuote:
**Because the aperture is controlled electronically, this lens can only stop down when used with compatible cameras. The Pentax K-50, K-S1, K-S2, K-3, K-3 II, and K-1 are supported via a camera firmware update; the Pentax K-70, Pentax KP and all 2017 or newer bodies will work out of the box. The aperture diaphragm will always remain wide-open on unsupported bodies.

In an nutshell, this lens fully compatible with recent DSLRs but shouldn't be used on older bodies or film cameras.
Read more at: HD Pentax-DA 55-300mm F4.5-6.3 PLM WR RE Review - Specifications | PentaxForums.com Reviews


Last edited by aslyfox; 01-08-2020 at 09:47 AM.
01-08-2020, 09:46 AM - 1 Like   #23
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KP in my case was a clear upgrade on K5ii, I have no doubt you will see a huge difference!
01-08-2020, 10:21 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by cprobertson1 Quote
I've been thinking of upgrading my K-50 for a while now - and one of the guys at work recently bought a brand new Pentax KP and I rather liked it - though I've not really had a chance to play about with it except from a token shot or two in the office.

It got me thinking though: is it just gear-creep/envy? Sure it'd be nice to have a new camera, but do I need one, or merely want one?

Im typically a believer of "a bad artisan blames their tools" - and I love my K-50 - it's a good wee camera! I cannot fault it. That's a lie, some of the menus are harder-to-reach than I would like - but aside from that, I cannot fault it!

My arguments for an upgrade are that the KP has many features I find appealing - the low-light/high ISO performance should pair well with the tilting LCD and the red-mode for low-light viewing for doing astro, the higher 24 mp resolution (and super-resolution option) appeals for landscape and macro work. It is also aesthetically pleasing, and from what I can gather, ruggedly built.

On the flip-side, it's a lot of money: I would need to get it on finance, and would most likely stick with my existing lenses rather than purchasing a new kit lens with it1 - though I might be persuaded otherwise! I would also need to replace my sanyo AA batteries - and with that comes reduced battery life and extra cost. Not a huge problem, but annoying nonetheless. Finally, the K-50 does work perfectly - and I love it, which brings me round full-circle! I don't technically need a new camera: it ultimately comes down to a new camera taking my fancy, rather than any true "need" for a new camera.

What do you guys think? Would the KP be a worthy upgrade from a K-50, or shall I wait until the K-50 starts to literally fail (years from now) and upgrade then?

1 -- Pentax 18-55mm F/3.5-5.6 AL WR, Samsung 50-200mm F/4-5.6 D-Xeno, 50mm F/1.8 SMC DA, Tair 3S 300mm F/4.5, Sigma 600mm Catadioptric, F/8
I had been using a K-30, but its aperture control started failling, so I purchased a KP a year ago. On occasion I still use the K-30, but I almost wonder why, because the KP is so much better. Focusing with my '77-420' {55-300 PLM plus 1.4X TC} is sure and quick, and I have really enjoyed TAv mode now that I can go at least to ISO 12800 without wondering how the photos will turn out {I hardly ever went above ISO 800 on the K-30}. The price of the KP has dropped very little in the past year, and I really don't expect much drop from now on.
01-08-2020, 12:00 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I had been using a K-30, but its aperture control started failling, so I purchased a KP a year ago. On occasion I still use the K-30, but I almost wonder why, because the KP is so much better. Focusing with my '77-420' {55-300 PLM plus 1.4X TC} is sure and quick, and I have really enjoyed TAv mode now that I can go at least to ISO 12800 without wondering how the photos will turn out {I hardly ever went above ISO 800 on the K-30}. The price of the KP has dropped very little in the past year, and I really don't expect much drop from now on.
That's a pretty bold claim

Ok I'm going to have to ask you if you really think that ISO 12800 on the KP is as good as ISO 800 on the K-30.

I have a K-50 and a K-S1 and I can shoot both at ISO 3200 with no problems, they both clean up well if I shoot RAW. If I shoot APS-C I can get useful shots still with both at 3200 but there will be some color noise left - no big deal, just don't pixel peep too much.

I've looked at some K-70 shots at ISO 3200 and they don't seem a lot better than my in-camera JPEGs from the K-S1, honestly. And they look worse than the ones I cleaned up myself with RawTherapee. I don't think the KP is that much better than the K-70 (they're supposed to be about the same), so I wonder what is going on here...

But shooting ISO 800 on the K-30 seems way too conservative, I'd say even ISO 1600 looks decently clean on K-50 (which is a K-30 with a different makeup) and I need to see these ISO 12800 shots from the KP or K-70 that are a lot better than an in-camera JPEGs from the K-50 (or K-30) at ISO 1600. or even 3200

Last edited by ChristianRock; 01-08-2020 at 12:07 PM.
01-08-2020, 03:48 PM - 1 Like   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by cprobertson1 Quote
B) Better IQ in general. Assuming that I am in a position to take a "perfect" picture, the body will only improve IQ if the lens isn't limiting the system - in other words, in my case, the lens is acting as the IQ-bottleneck. I could have the world's best sensor on the other side, and it will still be limited by whatever is coming through the lens.
You demonstrate a good grasp of this relationship.
01-08-2020, 05:38 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by cprobertson1 Quote
C) Increased low-light performance - of my shots, 1/3 take place at night, 1/6 macro, and the rest in decent light. That's not including astrophotography, which, due to stacking takes up a huge proportion of my total shot-count! In fact, I am very happy with my K-50 for astro - though I am still a novice in that particular field!
While it is true that when already having a very well-performing camera, that a better one may not necessarily translate to a visually superior result, in answering a query such as yours here, I always take into consideration one's interests in photography. In your case, I definitely recommend saving up to get a good deal on the KP plus DA 18-135mm combo. Keep your K-50 as a secondary backup body.

As to the lens- the DA 16-85mm offers better edge performance particularly as zoomed into the tele range. So if one has a particular interest in more wide angle shots below 18mm, and having better sharpness at the edge of the frame in the tele range above 50mm, this is a very fine lens to consider. However, the special combination of virtues the DA 18-135mm offers should not be ignored-

1. Although not quite as wide at the shortest FL, the additional zoom into the tele range is considerable and very useful for not having to change lenses as often.
2. Its very fast and accurate AF, one of the very best, far better than your kit lens. This is very important.
3. For landscape shots mostly up to 50mm, its edge performance is actually quite good, and really good if stopped down even a little.
4. Its central-area sharpness is rated excellent by test labs through its zoom range, an outstanding result for such a range, and as one gets into more telephoto, the usual thing is the frame's edges become less important anyway. Even test labs are guilty of down-grading a lens for edge performance wide open in the tele range and through a huge zoom range and even worse, downgrading due to corner performance, when every other aspect is exceptional.
5. Speed. While not a pro-style f/2.8 fast zoom lens, or semi at f/2.8-4, it can keep to f/3.5-4.5 up to 70mm or around one stop off the pro-style but with greater zoom range.
6. Size. It is amazingly compact for what it is and is capable of, in keeping with the design concept of the KP, while the DA 16-85mm is substantially larger and heavier.
7. Its build quality is very good indeed, similar to that of the DA 16-85mm, including WR construction like the camera body. To get WR construction with Nikon or Canon, you can expect to shop in the $1,000+ USD category for each.
8. Closeup quality. Good bokeh (the smoothness of out-of-focus background, etc as opposed to a "nervous" characteristic) which is usually found on more expensive lenses. Actually, its less sharpness in telephoto settings at the frame's edges can add to this good effect.
9. Cost. For all that it is, and can do, price is quite reasonable.

Since a "picture is worth a thousand words" I direct you to a recent thread in the SLR lens section of these forums, by "bigyinn", entitled: Lens Choices.
He is mostly interested in wide angle, but also wonders about upgrading from his DA 18-135mm. On page 2, there is post # 20 by Des. A closeup of his dog. I've noticed closeups are one of your interests. No doubt taken well into the telephoto range. For getting huge closeups as in macro, of course a macro lens is needed, but that is another story. This example is a good one as to what this lens can do on a camera body with imaging quality of a KP. He also provides a link for further examples. My own post in this thread is on page one, #11. I might mention, the DA 18-135mm seems to have fewer issues with getting an off-copy than usual. Fewer complaints seen here than usual.

I've been into photography for some 45 years. I now have many lenses, some of top pro-style quality, also a number of camera bodies, and like Des, some lenses overlapping in FL- as in a pro-style Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8, the excellent DA 20-40mm f/2.8-4 Limited, as well as the DA 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 DC WR, yet if I had to do with just one of these it would be the DA 18-135mm- it is that useful and satisfying.

The KP camera- There is no doubt of its superiority for low light/higher ISO use. I've come through numerous DSLR bodies. The K-5 flagship series was the first real breakthrough in this regard. It has a sensor similar to that in your K-50, performing even a tad better than your otherwise fine camera. I still have and use mine, especially the K-5 IIs. Wonderful controls set. Still very satisfactory imaging, so I understand your satisfaction with your K-50. The KP's image quality with a good lens, as well as its processor for out-of-the camera JPEG images, and its exposure metering, all outstanding.

I sometimes skip over some upgrading of models, while determining the advancement would not be particularly meaningful for my use. I did so with the K-3 series. But the KP turned out to be a whole new ballgame, about as great as the K-5 series over its predecessors. I also do quite a lot of low light work. It is also remarkable in its concept of being lighter and svelte, but with a pro-level build quality. I don't know about your area, but over here in the US the price has come down to what amounts to bargain-level for this type of build and controls set. Its controls set is way above that of your K-50. You can make changes more directly and efficiently without having to go to menus. Bracketing or changing metering types, for example, are more accessible. The pull-out screen can be useful for many situations. Doing work on a tripod where you don't have to bend over, or down low where you don't have to crawl on the ground, or up high over head. There is so much more. Sometimes having a better set of tools, which the KP has aplenty, will in the process of exploring those tools, be inspirational towards learning more in-depth methods to improve your photography. In that sense, the equipment can sometimes make a difference as well as being more convenient. A very powerful camera in a svelte body.

The superior higher ISO performance, while maintaining good detail, essentially makes your lens behave like a faster, more expensive lens on a lesser body. If you, say, use your DA 18-135mm lens set at f/5.6 for optimum results, by increasing ISO while preserving quality, you might actually get better results than a "better" lens on a lesser body set at f/2.8, since the lens you are using has no such aperture. In that case, it is also about shutter speed as well. I bought mine in silver and it is beautiful. Inspires one to use it even more.

Last edited by mikesbike; 01-09-2020 at 03:29 AM.
01-08-2020, 06:05 PM   #28
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here is a link to a side by side comparison

K 50 vs. Kp vs. K 3 II

Pentax K-50 vs. Pentax KP vs. Pentax K-3 II - Pentax Camera Comparison - PentaxForums.com
01-08-2020, 06:17 PM   #29
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The KP is indisputably an upgrade just due to the better low light performance, the lack of an AA filter, (big change in sharpness!) as well as better controls, an available battery grip, better dust removal, better shake reduction, and you can still use the Pentax batteries from the K-50! (Sorry , not the AAs though.) If you find a deal, even with the current lens line up I think you could see some improvement in IQ. YMMV!
01-08-2020, 07:33 PM - 1 Like   #30
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I'm still using a K5 11
But...a kit lens and a lens bundled as a kit are not the same eg the 20 - 40 ltd was bundled with the KP in one deal but the 20 - 40 ltd is no kit lens

Dave
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