Just to make it clear, I think of this as more of an academic discussion than something that will make a whole lot of practical difference.
Originally posted by Smoke665 Possibly because of differences in the K3II and the K1MII?
Possibly, but I'd expect the difference to be even more pronounced then. You may well be right, though.
Originally posted by Smoke665 I would disagree with this as a blanket statement.
Umm, you forgot some context:
Originally posted by savoche The main problem isn't noise, but rather lack of dynamic range. At these high ISO values there is, what, 3 stops of DR left? For extreme shooting it's probably better to stay at ISO 100 and underexpose to protect the highlights. These days the sensors are pretty darn close to ISO invariant.
There are enough conditions there to not make it a blanket statement, I think
Originally posted by Smoke665 There are two types of noise in a digital image, shot noise and read noise. Shot noise occurs when random photons are emitted by lightsources which gives rise to variations in the light hitting each part of the sensor. Read noise occurs as the analogue signal is amplified prior to the analog to digital convertor. When you increase ISO in camera you're amplifying shot noise but the signal to noise ratio is the same, because the read noise occurs after amplification. When you shoot at low ISO and boost the exposure post, you increase both shot noise and read noise.
This is all true. It is also true that (many) modern sensor systems have very little read noise. With a K-1 there is very little difference in visible noise between an ISO 100 shot raised 5 stops in post and an ISO 3200 shot. I will not claim that the K-1 is fully ISO invariant, but I believe it is very close.
Originally posted by Smoke665 High ISO doesn't create shot noise. If you have a dim scene, with little light hitting the sensor then you'll have noise in the shadows regardless of the ISO. Likewise a brightly lit scene will have more light hitting the sensor resulting little noise regardless of ISO setting. The biggest influence on noise then, is the amount of light falling on the sensor, assuming the ISO is set correctly to avoid over or under exposing the image.
Yes, I agree. ISO has nothing to do with shot noise. The number of photons reaching you sensor has everything to do with shot noise. Increase the amount of light 100 times and noise only increases 10 times - resulting in an increased signal-to-noise ratio and thus less visible noise (although more noise in absolute terms).
Originally posted by Smoke665 A better way to manage noise is to allow as much light as possible to hit the sensor without over/underexposing the image and to use the highest ISO possible without over/underexposing the image.
Certainly, more light = less visible noise. But the higher the ISO the easier it gets to blow the highlights. This might force you to decrease your exposure to protect the highlights, resulting in a lower SNR. The point of shooting at a lower ISO is to retain better dynamic range. As I stated above, when you get to ISO 25k with the K-3 there is very little dynamic range left. Even the K-1 II will be down to something like 5 stops of DR.
So,
if we accept as true that read noise is negligible and thus only need to worry about shot noise, we can get better results shooting at lower ISO because the dynamic range will be larger.
(There certainly are other drawbacks with this method, such as making chimping much harder and also the requirement of more post processing.)
Then again, if we have a system with noticeable read noise, such as most Canon sensors, I would agree with you all the way. And also if we shoot JPEG, of course.