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I have a 10MP Pentax K10D digital camera with a CCD sensor. I also own some newer Pentax cameras with CMOS sensors.

To my eye, I see a subtle difference in the way CCD cameras render color as compared to the way CMOS cameras render color.

I know, that the sensor itself is not the difference maker, rather the CFA that sits on top of the sensor itself. So, let's not get into a technical discussion on that.

For those of you who shoot both CCD and CMOS cameras, do you too detect a difference in color? If so, how would you describe this difference, and which do you prefer CCD or CMOS colors?

Well, this is interesting. There is a difference, I do not know whether it is the rendering of colours or something different. If I look at the picture as a whole what I like about a CCD is that it is much more "film" like than a CMOS. I am fond of my Samsung GX-10, I have made such great pictures with it (IMnotsoHO). Pictures from my GX-10 are sharp and at the same time there is a softness in the picture just like my old Kodak rolls. I do not know if the difference lies in the fact that the CCD was designed for imaging whereas the CMOS was designed for other purposes. It does also mean that all the other circuits are also specifically designed for working with the CCD and differ from those designed for the CMOS. I have a K-3II as well and if I take a picture and look back (review it) it hits me. My GX-10 is gentler. The colours are not "loud", so to speak.

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Last edited by Unregistered User; 04-02-2020 at 03:29 AM. Reason: a little more explaining

[Fenwoodian]

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Thanks all for your great comments!

I've been working hard to identify the best CCD images on Flickr. I've put them into a Gallery that you can access here. I believe this gallery is a testiment to the improved color one can get from CCD sensor cameras. If you have a good CCD photo on Flickr that you'd like me to consider for this gallery please message me.

I'm so convinced about the terrific colors CCD cameras produce, I've purchased 5 new-to-me CCD cameras in the last few weeks. Although, the holly grail of CCD cameras (the Leica M9) is too costly for me, I can always dream!
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[stevebrot]

For those with Lightroom, I found the article detailing how to attemtp the CCD look from a CMOS capture in PP.

Get "that CCD look" with the K-3 / K-3II and Lightroom - PentaxForums.com


...and also @Dartmoor_Dave 's instructions on using the preset to create an Adobe DNG camera profile.


https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/61-post-processing-articles/350673-get-c...ml#post4094337




Steve

[photoptimist]

Now that really is interesting. Green is the dominant colour in my part of the world, and the ability to render the greens of the Dartmoor landscape accurately is one of the major reasons why I've stuck with CCD. No matter how hard I've tried with custom profiling and adjusting colour curves in processing, I've never been able to get the greens quite right with any CMOS I've tried.

Now that issue is almost certainty caused by the CFA and you are right that it may be uncorrectable.

The problem arises in the cross-overs in the spectral curves between R, G, and B which have a significant and hard-to-correct effect on final image color. These determine whether shorter-wavelength greens look bluish/cyanish and whether longer-wavelength greens look yellowish. The cross-over also determines if a "true yellow" to your eyes ends up looking greenish or orangish in the image and whether a "true cyan" ends up looking greenish or bluish in the image.

Although all leaves seem to be "green" with chlorophyll, they actually also include other pigments (various xanthophylls and carotenes) that tend to reflect a range of red, orange, and yellow light to subtly modulate the hues of the leaves of different plants at different times of year. There are also two main types of chlorophyll and they have different spectra, too.

Although much can be done in post processing to make CMOS colors look like CCD colors (and vice versa), some differences can't be corrected. If two different color patches look identical to the human eye, identical to the CCD sensor, but different to the CMOS sensor, then correction is impossible. Likewise if two different color patches look different to the human eye, different to the CCD sensor, but identical to the CMOS sensor, then correction is impossible. This can happen if one patch is a true pure yellow (of some wavelength) and the other sample is a mix of red and green-reflecting pigments (a mix of two wavelengths). Note: this phenomenon also implies that light sources that have weird spectra such as CFLs and LEDs can create uncorrectable color problems by making colors that were different in sunlight look identical in artificial light.

[stevebrot]

Although all leaves seem to be "green" with chlorophyll, they actually also include other pigments (various xanthophylls and carotenes) that tend to reflect a range of red, orange, and yellow light to subtly modulate the hues of the leaves of different plants at different times of year. There are also two main types of chlorophyll and they have different spectra, too.

Glad you made this comment. My region is rather green much of the time and our forests are particularly mossy and moist in places. When doing forest stream work, getting the look of "green and lush" is often a challenge due to a paucity of warm light where a simple change in white balance is woefully inadequate. What I often have to do is play to those minor pigments with the warm tone sliders and also to build contrast by working the warm and cool tones against each other.


Steve

[Dartmoor Dave]

The problem arises in the cross-overs in the spectral curves between R, G, and B which have a significant and hard-to-correct effect on final image color. These determine whether shorter-wavelength greens look bluish/cyanish and whether longer-wavelength greens look yellowish. The cross-over also determines if a "true yellow" to your eyes ends up looking greenish or orangish in the image and whether a "true cyan" ends up looking greenish or bluish in the image.

Thanks for the excellent explanation of the underlying science. You've given me a deeper insight into why it's such a challenge to capture the greens of the landscape around here accurately.

[ajbenson88]

I quite like the depth of the CCD, the colors look a lot more vibrant if you will. With vintage lenses, I actually prefer CCD over CMOS.

Cheers!

[RussV]

Edit: I'm going to say something now that I've wanted to say for a long time, and I don't care if I get flamed to a crisp for it. The colours in most of the K-1 shots I've ever seen are horrible.

As a k10 owner I haven't seen many example shots from other Pentax that grabbed my attention until the KP, there's something about the colours I've noticed more than once. Not that I plan to buy one!

[Digitalis]

Pentax K10D - Sigma 100-300mm f/4 APO EX DG @ f/4 ISO 100 1/180th wireless Pentax AF540FGZ with Honl 1/3CTO gel filter.

Green is the dominant colour in my part of the world,

Funny thing is I'm living in one of the driest states in one of the driest countries in the world: Green is definitely not one of the dominant colours here. Red earth, yellow dry grass, and blue skies (and seas) are much more dominant features, green is fleetingly seen during late winter/spring.

Using the camera profiles I work with I have tried to come up with a gamut plot of the K10D colour response curves to illustrate the differences in colour, I also have a D200 which uses the same CCD sensor as the K10D. Curiously, their colour responses are not identical: the Nikon DSLR is consistently cooler in its rendering under identical testing* conditions.


* I build sensor profiles using a pinhole lens and a 128 swatch colour target, it is time consuming but very interesting to correlate the target hue and what the camera captured.

[Dartmoor Dave]

* I build sensor profiles using a pinhole lens using a 128 swatch colour target, it is time consuming but very interesting to correlate the target hue and what the camera captured.

By a funny coincidence, making some new profiles using a pinhole has been one of the items on my lockdown to-do list, so I think I might give it a try today. For the past few years I've been using profiles made with a 70 year old uncoated 50mm lens that appears to introduce no colour cast of its own, at least to the naked eye, but a confirmation from you that a pinhole is the way to go is good enough for me. I only use a 24 colour card and Adobe's free profile editor app, which is good enough for my own amateurish needs.

[Digitalis]

A pinhole seemed simpler rather than finding a lens that fits every possibe camera I work with: while technically possible*, I would have to find a lens that introduced no colour artifacts - or at least measure them and remove them in post which is a level of tedium that doesn't appeal to my (relatively lazy) sensibilities...and you hardly need high levels of resolution to read a colour swatch target, in fact the diffraction from a pinhole is probably beneficial as it homogenizes the individual target swatches.

* I suppose I could adapt my Schneider APO Symmar 240 mm f/5.6 but the focal length is very long on smaller formats, perhaps the Rodenstock Grandagon-N 155mm f/6.8 would be better...

[Dartmoor Dave]

I went ahead and made some new profiles with a pinhole today, and I'm very happy with them. This one falls into the category of: "Why the heck didn't I try it this way five years ago?"

Thanks are due to @Digitalis.

[The Squirrel Mafia]

.For those of you who shoot both CCD and CMOS cameras, do you too detect a difference in color? If so, how would you describe this difference, and which do you prefer CCD or CMOS colors?

I don't know what it is, but there's something magical about that 10MP CCD Sony sensor at ISO 100. I still prefer the look of my old Sony a200 images over my K-50 images at ISO 100, but the K-50 pretty much trounces the Sony at every ISO after that up to ISO 12800. My old a200 was useless after ISO 800. But yeah, ISO 100 was like magic & pixie dust with that sensor.

[Theov39]

Obviously it is subjective as people have their own preferences in relation to color like anything else, but to me at least I vastly prefer the 'look' from CCD sensors compared to CMOS.

The colors from a Pentax K200, Nikon D50 and Fujifilm S3 Pro all seem richer, more pleasing and closer to the look of film, esp Fuji film like Velvia, and with the exception of the K200 I still use those cameras occasionally for their image quality and unique film-like look. Indeed, that was exactly why the Fujifilm S3 Pro was so popular with wedding photographers in its time.

The problem is that while these old CCD sensors are still great in terms of image quality, in others areas contemporary cameras have vastly surpassed earlier CCD cameras (eg LCD monitor size and resolution, ISO capability, sensor size and sensitivity, speed of operation, frame-rate, range of options etc). Consequently, it has become a trade off between that and the unique look of CCD sensors.

Having said that, there is obviously more going on here than just the sensor that others more technically literate than me may be able to explain. The Nikon D70 had a CCD sensor but the colors were, in my view, awful to look at while the colors of the K-3 are really rich and pleasing to the eye despite having a CMOS sensor.

Unlike Pentax, images from contemporary CMOS Nikon cameras all seem to have a clinical look to me, with the Nikon D700 being a possible exception. Indeed, it was this clinical look in the post-CCD Nikon cameras that made me change systems from Nikon to Pentax because it was the closest I could find to the CCD 'look' of those earlier cameras, esp the Fuji S3 Pro.

[Wheatfield]

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I have a 10MP Pentax K10D digital camera with a CCD sensor. I also own some newer Pentax cameras with CMOS sensors.

To my eye, I see a subtle difference in the way CCD cameras render color as compared to the way CMOS cameras render color.

I know, that the sensor itself is not the difference maker, rather the CFA that sits on top of the sensor itself. So, let's not get into a technical discussion on that.

For those of you who shoot both CCD and CMOS cameras, do you too detect a difference in color? If so, how would you describe this difference, and which do you prefer CCD or CMOS colors?

Thanks for the thread.
I had a look at some of my older files. The nicest images in the studio are from my old *istD, with the K10 pretty much the same. The K20 just didn't strike me as being quite as nice as the CCD cameras that I've used, The camera I liked, but only at base ISO was the K7. The sensor got pretty noisy pretty quickly, but at 100 it was swell.
My studio stuff with the CCD cameras just seem smoother somehow.