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07-10-2020, 10:14 PM - 3 Likes   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
I have a gripe with my otherwise beloved K-1 ii, I am interested in knowing how you guys are managing it.
So, you're new to all this?

You, I and the rest of us got a bargain.

It's because inside, it's actually a K-3 with a 36Mp sensor.

So, your Nikon 5300 was only a 24 Mp camera, you now own a resolution, dynamic range and low noise monster, with a DxOMark still superior to the Canon flagship of today, the brand new 1Dx Mk III.

So each shot has much more data but with the same hardware to handle it. That's why if you'd bought a K-3, you'd be shooting at 8 frames per second with a buffer of 23 frames RAW + JPG.

But these pictures are so big - that's the consequence of you now shooting full frame - it's now 4.4fps, and the buffer is now reached at 13 frames RAW + JPG.

If you ever upgrade to medium format, get ready ... the 645Z again, is really a K-3 with a bigger sensor. So you'll find it shoots glorious 50Mp files but at 3fps and maybe 10 frame buffer.

If I'm caught without APS-C, I have switched off RAW to shoot only JPGs and even gone into crop mode, so I'm shooting at 16Mp like the K-5 the terrific sensor comes from. You'll get an increase in frame rate and buffer but of course you've lost pixels.

As you've discovered in photography - such as aperture, shutter speed and ISO - everything is a tradeoff in a situation.


Last edited by clackers; 07-11-2020 at 05:26 PM.
07-11-2020, 02:54 AM   #17
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The K-1 II is bascially a K-1 with an accelerator (and a few other features) added on. As far as I recall, the K-1 was released in 2016 and was in development for at least a couple of years prior to that. I still think it is a really good camera, but four year old specs are going to seem a bit long in the tooth.

My expectation is that Pentax releases an updated full frame camera next year with better specs - bigger buffer, faster frame rate, better video -- based off of the same engine that is going to be used for their K-new APS-C camera that is due to be released this fall. Unfortunately, it probably will be more expensive than the K-1 II as well.

Personally, I'm not a sport photographer and take short bursts at most, so I have not struggled with the buffer size and write times that much.
07-11-2020, 04:54 AM - 3 Likes   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
- How are you guys managing the long write times to SD card?
- Are there any particular SD cards that offer better experience?
- Would you shoot 15 MP RAW or 36 MP JPEG, to increase the buffer depth and reduce the writing time of the K-1 beyond what it offers for 36 MP raw?

Any tips are welcome, and thanks for your response in advance!
I don't shoot on high speed continuous for a start. That goes a long way towards managing the write times.
For me, it's a non issue. My studio flash takes about as long to recycle as my camera takes to write a file, and in the field, if I am doing focus stacks, the focus readjustment takes enough time that even in a 50 image stack, the write times are not a factor.
The K1 is not a spray and pray camera. If that is your shooting style, I can see how you might be disappointed in it.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 07-11-2020 at 05:15 AM.
07-11-2020, 03:10 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
EDIT : I was wrong about UHS-II certification, must have confused with another system. The K-1 has UHS-1 certification only.

I have a gripe with my otherwise beloved K-1 ii, I am interested in knowing how you guys are managing it.

The writing of images to SD card on K-1 ii is painfully slow. Sure the RAW files are large, but even compared to my friends Nikon D810 with similar megapixel sensor the writing speed is slow. My 2013 model of Nikon D5300 writes SD card Raw + JPEG files in 2 - 3 seconds after filling up a buffer of 5 RAW shots. My Pentax K1 takes over 10-11 seconds to write 11 RAW shots! Essentially this means both are writing at around 30 MB/s speed, despite having been built half a decade apart, with the D5300 taking the lead at times. I purchased the D5300 with 18-55 mm and 70-300 mm lens for $250 locally, which is evidence that the tech used to make the Nikon is quite cheap by now. Surely a premium camera deserves better SD card write hardware?

And if I wish to also copy the images onto SD card slot 2 as a safety measure against sudden card failure, that adds 30-40% more wait time because there is simply no parallel write between two slots. This was silly. Today I missed a shot of the bird flying because it took an unexpected turn, and by the time camera was done writing but bird was out of view.

As in 2016 the SD card write speed of of k1 was already considered one of its weaker points, I really wish pentax had heard and engineered a faster write speed for the K-1 ii refresh. It is a limiting aspect of this camera in high activity situations. The UHS-II certification of SD card slot 1 is also a gimmick - the writing is nowhere near UHS-II write speeds. Such a delight to use otherwise, why do this Ricoh!

I have resorted to shooting JPEG only in high action situations (programmed as a user mode) to keep the buffer length longer, and miss fewer shots.

- How are you guys managing the long write times to SD card?
- Are there any particular SD cards that offer better experience?
- Would you shoot 15 MP RAW or 36 MP JPEG, to increase the buffer depth and reduce the writing time of the K-1 beyond what it offers for 36 MP raw?

Any tips are welcome, and thanks for your response in advance!
What I have noticed: using a fast sd card makes a difference. Theoretically a 30 MB/s is fast enough for the MK1-II. But when I use a 95 MB/s card, the writing goes much faster.

I also noticed that formatting the card with a program like 'SD card formatter' makes a difference (use the 'overwrite format' option). Once in a month or so, I don't format my card card in the camera but in my computer using that program. When I have done that, the writing of the card goes much faster. I don't know why that happens, but that's what I have noticed.

07-11-2020, 04:01 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by myrdinn Quote
Theoretically a 30 MB/s is fast enough for the MK1-II. But when I use a 95 MB/s card, the writing goes much faster.
Thank you for the tips. This would make sense, as the speed shown on card is different from sustained write speeds. The San Disk Extreme Pro series with 95 MB/s can sustain writes of around 30-35 MB/s, and the ones rated only 30 MB/s might be sustaining a write speed of 10-12 MB/s. That might be why faster SD cards are faster. This doesn't explain why Pentax is slower to write images than my Nikon, but this information helps a bit. I have since ordered an Extreme Pro card for inserting into my Pentax K-1.

QuoteOriginally posted by myrdinn Quote
i also noticed that formatting the card with a program like 'SD card formatter' makes a difference (use the 'overwrite format' option). Once in a month or so, I don't format my card card in the camera but in my computer using that program. When I have done that, the writing of the card goes much faster. I don't know why that happens, but that's what I have noticed.
This can be possibly be explained by the way storage onto cards is handled internally. The SD card is essentially many individual 'cells', each cell being able to hold 1 piece of information. However, there are only so many times data can be stored and erased from a cell, before it turns faulty / leaky. Since people only partially fill up the cards all the time, in order to maximize SD card lifespans and minimize failures, the SD cards come equipped with a controller. The controller evens out the wear by spreading the data and storing it on the card. Over time, the controller spends more and more time searching for unused cells. when you do a thorough wipe it resets the state, giving controller full freedom to store anywhere since all cells are roughly equivalent.
07-11-2020, 05:23 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
Thank you for the tips. This would make sense, as the speed shown on card is different from sustained write speeds. The San Disk Extreme Pro series with 95 MB/s can sustain writes of around 30-35 MB/s, and the ones rated only 30 MB/s might be sustaining a write speed of 10-12 MB/s. That might be why faster SD cards are faster. This doesn't explain why Pentax is slower to write images than my Nikon, but this information helps a bit. I have since ordered an Extreme Pro card for inserting into my Pentax K-1.



This can be possibly be explained by the way storage onto cards is handled internally. The SD card is essentially many individual 'cells', each cell being able to hold 1 piece of information. However, there are only so many times data can be stored and erased from a cell, before it turns faulty / leaky. Since people only partially fill up the cards all the time, in order to maximize SD card lifespans and minimize failures, the SD cards come equipped with a controller. The controller evens out the wear by spreading the data and storing it on the card. Over time, the controller spends more and more time searching for unused cells. when you do a thorough wipe it resets the state, giving controller full freedom to store anywhere since all cells are roughly equivalent.
All the explanations you made, make sense. I hope you'll notice an improvement by following this suggestionss.
07-12-2020, 10:21 PM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
This doesn't explain why Pentax is slower to write images than my Nikon, but this information helps a bit. I have since ordered an Extreme Pro card for inserting into my Pentax K-1.
Clackers explained it; it's because you are processing significantly larger files than in the 5300.


QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It's because inside, it's actually a K-3 with a 36Mp sensor.

So, your Nikon 5300 was only a 24 Mp camera, you now own a resolution, dynamic range and low noise monster, with a DxOMark still superior to the Canon flagship of today, the brand new 1Dx Mk III.

So each shot has much more data but with the same hardware to handle it. That's why if you'd bought a K-3, you'd be shooting at 8 frames per second with a buffer of 23 frames RAW + JPG.

But these pictures are so big - that's the consequence of you now shooting full frame - it's now 4.4fps, and the buffer is now reached at 13 frames RAW + JPG.


07-13-2020, 10:17 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
So, you're new to all this?

You, I and the rest of us got a bargain.

It's because inside, it's actually a K-3 with a 36Mp sensor.

So, your Nikon 5300 was only a 24 Mp camera, you now own a resolution, dynamic range and low noise monster, with a DxOMark still superior to the Canon flagship of today, the brand new 1Dx Mk III.

So each shot has much more data but with the same hardware to handle it. That's why if you'd bought a K-3, you'd be shooting at 8 frames per second with a buffer of 23 frames RAW + JPG.

But these pictures are so big - that's the consequence of you now shooting full frame - it's now 4.4fps, and the buffer is now reached at 13 frames RAW + JPG.

If you ever upgrade to medium format, get ready ... the 645Z again, is really a K-3 with a bigger sensor. So you'll find it shoots glorious 50Mp files but at 3fps and maybe 10 frame buffer.

If I'm caught without APS-C, I have switched off RAW to shoot only JPGs and even gone into crop mode, so I'm shooting at 16Mp like the K-5 the terrific sensor comes from. You'll get an increase in frame rate and buffer but of course you've lost pixels.

As you've discovered in photography - such as aperture, shutter speed and ISO - everything is a tradeoff in a situation.
Thanks for your response. It is not just the big image size.

I tested it. 15 MP files of K-1 in APS-C mode, 12-bit RAW take longer to write than 24.2MP files of 14-bit RAW on D5300. That is around twice the data almost. After shooting 5 images, the K-1 takes a further 4-5 seconds to write and clear the buffer whereas in the D5300 it is 1s delay and camera is ready for 5 shots again. Therefore, somewhere in the firmware or the hardware level the K-1 had a bout of bad engineering, no reason a 7 year old camera should best a 4 year old camera thats around 8 times the price. My gripe is that the K-1 ii had the same issue continue even though it was released two years later.

Hope Ricoh fixes it in the upcoming APS-C flagship, given how its already excellent in areas such as image quality and weather resistance.

---------- Post added 07-13-20 at 10:21 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote
Clackers explained it; it's because you are processing significantly larger files than in the 5300.
Hi Leekil, thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, it seems to be much more than the image size.

In 14-Bit Raw mode, 24.2 MP resolution files of D5300 clear up the 5 image buffer in barely over 1 second. In 12-bit raw (only mode on k-1), 15 MP APS-C resolution, the K-1 ii takes around 4 seconds to process a 5 image buffer. Therefore, it seems to me that something under the hood is unoptimized.

Hope to see some improvements in upcoming cameras.

Last edited by brainwave; 07-13-2020 at 01:17 PM.
07-13-2020, 10:56 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
My gripe is that the K-1 ii had the same issue continue even though it was released two years later.
K-1 and K-1II are same camera. They just added the accelerator chip / board. Data bus is the same which admittedly is dated. I believe at the time of release there was some comment that the K-1 design had been in process for some years and that the data bus was a hold over from earlier design work.


Unlike you I do not think this is a problem that "needs fixed", but I agree that new cameras should move to a more modern data architecture.
07-13-2020, 03:06 PM - 1 Like   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Tomorrow I might find the slowish write times are a problem. My portrait shooting style is fast and focused. On the K-70's I almost never find it an issue but it will get tested this weekend on a K-1.
OK, so I never ran into an issue with waiting for image writes. Clipped along nicely all day.

Something surprising though:
I captured my very best images with the K-70 and *55, which I absolutely did not expect.

My guess is I'm just more comfortable with my K-70's having used them for portraits for over a year. I found myself stopping to think much more often on the FF. On the other hand I never did give my FA*85 any work since I quickly found the best 2 camera combo was the *55 and K70, and the K1 with the 50. Perhaps I should have put the crop away and leaned on the FA*85. Stiill on average I like the K1 pics with an HD FA 50 more, even tho the day's top shots came from the K70.

Last edited by gatorguy; 07-13-2020 at 04:53 PM.
07-20-2020, 10:57 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by brainwave Quote
Hi Leekil, thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, it seems to be much more than the image size.

In 14-Bit Raw mode, 24.2 MP resolution files of D5300 clear up the 5 image buffer in barely over 1 second. In 12-bit raw (only mode on k-1), 15 MP APS-C resolution, the K-1 ii takes around 4 seconds to process a 5 image buffer. Therefore, it seems to me that something under the hood is unoptimized.
The K-1/K-1 II is 14-bit, not 12-bit, just like all the flagship cameras. Do you have any references as to otherwise?


I'm seeing slightly different results than you are:

Shooting load buf. clear proc. rate pic rate test description & source
K-3 23 raw@24mpix 12sec 46Mpix/sec 1.9pic/sec (full buffer - DPReview numbers)
K-3 15raw@36mpix* 12 sec? 46mpix/sec 1.25pic/sec* (extrapolated)
K-1 51raw@15mpix 37sec 21mpix/sec 1.4 pic/sec (full buffer - my test)
K-1 23raw@15mpix 17sec 21mpix/sec 1.4 pic/sec
K-1 32raw@24mpix* 37sec? 21mpix/sec* 0.9 pic/sec* (extrapolated)
K-1 17raw@36mpix 26sec 24mpix/sec 0.7 pics/sec (full buffer - my test)


There does seem to be a difference in speed with the K-1 vs. the K-3, but I was not seeing 4:1 speed difference as you were. Perhaps using 5 images is too small of a sample to get rid of any setup issues, or to overcome any photos that were already written before you stopped shooting.

The K-1 seems to have a 50% larger buffer than the K-3, so you can shoot more with the K-1 than with the K-3, which makes up for some of the speed differences. If you are looking t similar image sizes, it seems like the K-1 is only a little slower than the K-3 in pic/sec, 1.9 vs. 1.4, but the overall data writing does seem to be slower. There may be additional overhead in dealing with the larger sensor, or there may be something that is not optimized as well as it could be.

Can you do similar tests as I did with your K-1 II and see if your numbers are the same? For the full buffer tests, I used high-speed shooting mode, RAW only, and held the button till the shooting speed paused, and then timed it from then until when the writing light went off.
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