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07-22-2020, 04:14 PM - 1 Like   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
This is your refference?
Mate, he is typical.

Read about this guy who's been doing stock photography for 13 years, he gives all the brutal breakdowns by platform. He says there are individuals who do well, but their incomes are not realistic expectations for anybody else. Or, I would add, any indication of even what these special individuals will earn in one year, two years or three years' time. Sports Illustrated sacked *all* their staff photographers a couple of years ago, whether they were new to the industry or twenty year veterans.

Realistic Income from Stock Photography - How Much Can Really Earn

You're sounding like an Amway salesman, Dan. You can't point to exceptions, the one percent, and say they represent the 99 percent!


Last edited by clackers; 07-22-2020 at 04:39 PM.
07-22-2020, 04:39 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Mate, he is typical.

Read about this guy who's been doing stock photography for 13 years, he gives all the brutal breakdowns by platform:

Realistic Income from Stock Photography - How Much Can Really Earn

You're sounding like an Amway salesman, Dan. You can't point to exceptions, the one percent, and say they represent the 99 percent!
You have to decide which path you want to follow:
1. A guy who is doing stock photography from 13 years and gets those bad results

or

2. Focus on top contributors work (Yuri Arcurs for example) as source of inspiration and also for discovering stock trends.

I started stock photography by reading blogs like the one you posted or like Bruttaly honest microstock guide for example (I even bought his book). Following their path and their tips and advices, in 2018 I was making 25$-40$ each month. Once I realized that I work a lot more than I earn, I started to pay attention on Adobe stock website at the "Top contributors of the week" section. From there, I started to see where their images are being used using Google image search tool. I started to pay attention to keywords and to particularities of each agency also and I started to put into practice what I learned.

You talk about my experience as an exception. I'm not an exception at all because I have a lot more examples of stock photographers who earn a lot more money than me. Some are friends of mine, some are photographers I follow and I talk to from time to time on Facebook. These so called "stock experts" who make people believe that you can't earn money from stock simply don't want to look at stock as a business and not as a hobby. Here is the main difference between success and some extra cash in your pocket.

It all depends on what you choose to believe and what you choose to do to improve your results. I looked at some of his images and he has some bad keywords there (some of them are being considered Spam these days because are not relevant to the composition).
07-22-2020, 04:43 PM   #48
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Dan, here's another. Been shooting since 2009. Microstock agencies paying 25 cents to $5 for a sale, in an ever more crowded market - everyone's got a phone or camera - that's just the economics of it.

What It Takes to Make $500 per Month Selling Stock Photos

It is only a tiny minority who can hope to make this worth their while, it's poverty - or a hobby - for anyone else.
07-22-2020, 04:57 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Dan, here's another. Been shooting since 2009. Microstock agencies paying 25 cents to $5 for a sale, in an ever more crowded market - everyone's got a phone or camera - that's just the economics of it.

What It Takes to Make $500 per Month Selling Stock Photos

It is only a tiny minority who can hope to make this worth their while, it's poverty - or a hobby - for anyone else.
Again, reading articles on internet won't help motivating you, on the contrary. Also, the tendency is to follow their path because you believe that those guys are experts given the 10, 13 or 15 years of experience in stock If you set your standards as low as theirs, you will be lucky to make even half of what they make, which is already very low. You can't start a business based on assumptions and articles of mediocre contributors. Luckily, stock is a business that allows you to experiment and to make mistakes also. You just need a winner mentality, an eye for trends, editing based on trends and trendy keywords. As I told you, one of the guy you shared has bad keywords on all 6 images I looked at. And by bad I mean really bad.

It's a lot to talk about when comes to stock. If you are interested in the topic, please open a new thread and I will share all the usefull information I know when comes to stock. Then you can start experiment and we can update monthly the topic with the results, earnings, topics approached, etc.

07-22-2020, 06:38 PM - 8 Likes   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
K-200D?
Please tell me you have a Pentax body newer than a K-200D.
I'd rather not be seen in public with a K-200D, so I guess it's all about what we'd be seen in public with now.
QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
I do have a K-x but it needs duct tape to hold the batteries in. The bottom plate is cracked. I don't mind being seen in public with a K200D or K-x, even with duct tape.
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
C'mon, Wasp, I'm sure you're not that soft!

I use one occasionally, when using Face (eye) Detection on sunny days.
No matter how old the Pentax you're shooting is, you won't look as dorky as this:

07-22-2020, 09:21 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
If you are interested in the topic, please open a new thread and I will share all the usefull information I know when comes to stock.
I'm not interested, especially since you're ignoring all evidence of others' experiences to the contrary - but why don't you start that thread anyway, Dan?
07-23-2020, 12:01 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I'm not interested, especially since you're ignoring all evidence of others' experiences to the contrary - but why don't you start that thread anyway, Dan?
You know what's interesting? When comes to Pentax, almost every popular Youtuber (by popular I'm talking about the ones with 1 milion + followers, like Jared Polin, Tony Northrup) and online influencers like DPreview for example say about Pentax system that it doesn't do this, it doesn't do that and that it's not on par with competition. Yet, you choose to adopt a positive and a winning attitude towards Pentax, ignoring everything negative that reviewers and influencers have to say, choosing to focus on the good things about Pentax. That's top approach. When I say regarding stock photography and videography that there are money to be made up to the point that you can live from this, you choose to act like Tony Northrup, DPreview, etc. saying you can't make money from stock and to prove your point you posted what you consider to be evidence, or to be more specific, the one you choosed to be relevant for this discussion.

I choose to follow guys like Jacob Lundt, Rido or View apart. Their names means nothing outside stock photography world, but all of them make 6000$+ each month and View apart has also the Microstock academy, which is a far more reliable evidence than the guys you choosed to show as evidence. And it's far more reliable because you can talk to his students and see their income, which increased a lot after they started to put into practice what they learned from a successful contributor. A guy or a few guys who make 100-200$/month are not reliable as models to follow in order to become successful in stock market. They can't teach you how to become successful because they didn't managed to become successful either. What they successfully manage as it seems is to discurage new stock photographers. Stock is not about uploading things you like, it's about uploading what market demands. Stock is not about editing as if you shoot products where everything has to be spot on. I for example wouldn't edit in this life my personal images or clients images like the ones I edit for stock, but for stock I edit my images as market dictates.

Let's say I'm the exception and the reality is the one you present, or to be more specific, the reality is the one the guys you mentioned presented in their articles. What's stopping you to become an exception? Their reality?

It's not my fault that you choosed to focus on the negative part of stock business by reading stock articles of mediocre (at most) contributors. By mediocre I'm not talking about their skills as photographers/videographers. They can have the most gorgeous images possible, if they don't follow the trends when comes to what the market needs or if they don't follow the editing or keywording trends, they will stay at the level they are or they will earn less and less even by regulary uploading new images.

Motivation and success comes by following the top contributors of the stock market and their tips and tricks, not by following advices from the ones that in 13 years earned not even the money that a top contributor make in a month.

So yes, I choose to ignore all your evidence not because I want to be disrespectful to you but because I've been there for an entire year, following unsuccessful contributors like you presented as real evidence and by doing that I was making 40$/month instead of 700$+/month I make now by changing my approach and by following top contributors.

I can't follow a guy who and I qoute from the article " In total, James has attempted to upload around 750 images to sites like these, with around 350 of them being accepted.". I had under 20 rejections during my 2 and a half years as stock photographer with a portfolio of 1200 images on one agency.

And I can't follow either a guy who use a program that allows him to upload his images to multiple agencies at the same time. The reason is more than simple: each agency has different keywords vocabulary and what works on Shutterstock for example won't work at all on iStock/Getty who has it's own vocabulary.

But again, the guys you mentioned are good for scaring photographers away from stock, which I don't mind.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-24-2020 at 02:50 AM.
07-24-2020, 12:38 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Yet, you choose to adopt a positive and a winning attitude towards Pentax
I can tell you, Dan, it's certainly not about whether someone shoots Pentax or not. And by the way, if you'd been paying attention to this forum, you'd know I recently assisted the class action against Ricoh Imaging.

You by contrast, never cease to be a Canon sales rep here, I've noticed.

So, to answer your question, I would counsel a fellow photographer of any brand to have realistic expectations about earnings from stock photography. I'd advise them also against quitting their day job, buying a 600mm f4 and hoping to become a professional wildlife photographer, or a 400mm f2.8 and becoming a pro sports photographer, or these days, increasingly even a suburban wedding photographer for all the heartaches that come with that.

And that's from seeing what's happened to people in those professions in the last two, three years - good ones, too. It's just economics.

Again, Dan, I ask - why don't you start a thread about this as you threatened to do earlier, and people who don't share my pessimism about the 99 percent can ask you all manner of questions about these Rivers of Gold? I think either the General Photography or Industry forums would be good places. See how supportive I can be?


Last edited by clackers; 07-24-2020 at 12:55 AM.
07-24-2020, 02:14 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I can tell you, Dan, it's certainly not about whether someone shoots Pentax or not. And by the way, if you'd been paying attention to this forum, you'd know I recently assisted the class action against Ricoh Imaging.

You by contrast, never cease to be a Canon sales rep here, I've noticed.

So, to answer your question, I would counsel a fellow photographer of any brand to have realistic expectations about earnings from stock photography. I'd advise them also against quitting their day job, buying a 600mm f4 and hoping to become a professional wildlife photographer, or a 400mm f2.8 and becoming a pro sports photographer, or these days, increasingly even a suburban wedding photographer for all the heartaches that come with that.

And that's from seeing what's happened to people in those professions in the last two, three years - good ones, too. It's just economics.

Again, Dan, I ask - why don't you start a thread about this as you threatened to do earlier, and people who don't share my pessimism about the 99 percent can ask you all manner of questions about these Rivers of Gold? I think either the General Photography or Industry forums would be good places. See how supportive I can be?
Did I said anything about people quiting jobs? In my first comment I said that 8k and 4k at 60fps and 120fps for stock videographers is the next big step for creating top quality content without spending 30000$ for dedicated video cameras, especially since the videos for stock are from 10 to 60 seconds long, so overheating cameras won't be a probem. Every time someone try to motivate people to dream big and work for that dream to come true, there must be some negative people which think that they are realistic by sharing some articles of people which complains about lack of results after 10 or 13 years of stock photography/videography, but who are more than happy to teach others on their blogs about how you can be unsuccessful, like they are, by providing tips and tricks regarding how to sell in stock market. And this kind of people are negative about everything, as it seems.

Not to mention that instead of trying and see if it works or not for you to make decent money from stock, up to the point that you can make a living from it (while keeping also your day job if you like what you do), you are the first to say to someone (me in this particular case) who is in stock business more seriously since February 2019 and who actually makes 700$+/month working 5 hours/week for stock that you can't succeed in this business. My average income in 2020 is 870$/month. That's more than 10000$ at the end of the year. I say it's enough so that I won't have to complain that I don't have enough money to buy cameras and lenses, for example. And I do this in my free time, having fun.

I focus on goals and I chase my goals while having fun. Stock photography/videography is one of the best excuses to go out and shoot with a big chance to cover your GAS (cameras, lenses, vacations also). But nooo, it's more fun to complain on forums (this is a general observation) about not having money to buy a lens, a camera or a flash.

You counsel people to and I quote you "to have realistic expectations about earnings from stock photography"? Based on what, on some internet articles and based on your non existent direct experience with this business? Don't you see that this kind of attitude makes people to stay in their daily routine over and over again? Even if people make 150$/month from images that otherwise will end up on Facebook or on hard drives, that means 1800$ at the end of the year for buying cameras or lenses.

As for "Canon sales rep" affirmation, believe me, I'm not interested in being a sell rep for no one. That's why I'm my own boss having my own business. I just intervene in the discussions where people talk about the gear I use (or used) without having a direct experience with it (being Canon, Pentax or other cameras I played enough with in order to have an opinion about), that's all. As I noticed (perhaps others too), you don't have a clue about stock photography, but you are the first to talk about it based on some internet articles. I don't do that in a conversation because I like to talk about things I know about and it's even better if I talk to people with at least some direct experience about things they talk about, even if we disagree. At least we disagree on something we both now about.

To go back to topic, in my opinion Pentax does the right job now to stay with DSLRs until their recieve signals that it's time to change something. The mirrorless battle is too strong for them at the moment in my opinion.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-24-2020 at 03:04 AM.
07-24-2020, 03:04 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
You councel people to and I quote you "have realistic expectations about earnings from stock photography"? ..... Don't you see that this kind of attitude makes people to stay in their daily rutine over and over again?
I don't know about the business angle, but I know a bit about daily routine. I worked in an engineering company with a guy, a good amateur, who left to become a pro. After a time he returned to us because he did not find it as interesting or romantic as he had expected. He was taking formal publicity photos inside restaurants and pubs, picture of shops' stock items, and most of his time was not spent on photography but on setting up, helping to lay tables for the shots etc. None of it was the style of photography he enjoyed, and he certainly did not make much out of it. And there was the paperwork, and the hours spent on the phone making arrangements. Being paid to photograph top models and celebrities, or even views and landscapes, would be a different league, one he had no chance of getting into. He found his original job of trouble-shooting large engineering installations was far more interesting.

Anecdotal, but look around at the professionally taken photos you see day-to-day. The vast majority are studio photos of items for sale - humdrum work.

Last edited by Lord Lucan; 07-24-2020 at 03:12 AM.
07-24-2020, 04:14 AM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
I don't know about the business angle, but I know a bit about daily routine. I worked in an engineering company with a guy, a good amateur, who left to become a pro. After a time he returned to us because he did not find it as interesting or romantic as he had expected. He was taking formal publicity photos inside restaurants and pubs, picture of shops' stock items, and most of his time was not spent on photography but on setting up, helping to lay tables for the shots etc. None of it was the style of photography he enjoyed, and he certainly did not make much out of it. And there was the paperwork, and the hours spent on the phone making arrangements. Being paid to photograph top models and celebrities, or even views and landscapes, would be a different league, one he had no chance of getting into. He found his original job of trouble-shooting large engineering installations was far more interesting.

Anecdotal, but look around at the professionally taken photos you see day-to-day. The vast majority are studio photos of items for sale - humdrum work.
Let me show you what's my reality and tell me if this is something that can't be done by you or by any other photographer, as long as you put some effort in understanding the market needs based on what's happening in the world. But first, let me say something again because it seems that we talk about different things:
1. no one has to quit his job; I love what I do and I won't close my business so that I can focus on stock photography or photography in general. But, I rather get paid by people to see my images instead of posting them on Facebook, Instagram or Flicker and get likes in return
2. you don't have to be a pro and you don't have to promote yourself in any way when comes to stock photography; agencies cover this part for you
3. you don't need expensive gear for photography or video until you start to make a decent and constant income
4. you don't need to invest money in models; you can shoot friends or family

Below are 2 images that combined made me more than 1400$ and the best thing is that these images can still be bought for a long time from now on, generating income for me.

The one from the top was uploaded in February and it made me around 850$ in 5 months. The reason is simple: coronavirus pandemic came, affected old people and therefore online consults concept demand increased a lot. This image now is on the first page in some agencies, generating daily income.

The bottom image is with me doing what every entrepreneur does: checking taxes online. This image was bought in June by a Getty client from New York and paid 400$ for it, believe it or not.




Now, below is another example of an image that sells a lot even now, a few months after the Easter holiday ended. Again, during this Easter, most of the world was in quarantine at home and therefore video calls and online meetings were in demand. It's me and my wife on the couch and I took some random photos of my friends from computer and put them on the TV in Photoshop so that I can simulate a video meeting between friends. I also included myself twice: me sitting on the couch with rear view and in the video call holding a candle (bottom right on the TV). It earned me 320$ until now.

As you see, these are not top of the line quality images, but they are very good for news agencies, for health clinics or for bloggers to promote something. I was inspired to take them and upload them at the right time, with proper keywords as opposite to what keywords I saw on the images of the so called realistic experts that Clackers posted. These 3 images costs me one hour to take them, edit them, add title and keywords and upload them. 2 of them were taken at home and the one with me doing paperwork was taken at a small restaurant located at 30m from my home.



Now, what should I respond to people telling me you can't make money from stock or that you have to be an exception to succeed in this business as long as you can see that it's quite easy to take images like mine or a lot better than mine (with cheap gear also) and make money from them as long as you choose wisely which path you want to follow: the one of the so called realistic experts that Clackers chose to reveal or the path were you focus on trends and on top contributors work? I went both side so I speak from direct experience. After almost a year, I didn't liked the so called realistic experts approach, so I focused on following the ones who make real money from stock photos and videos (more than 7000$/month). And it paid off with photos up to the point that now I'm learning how to do video because until a month ago I didn't knew were the record button is on my cameras.

The best when comes to stock is that you don't have anything to loose as long as you have a camera and a lens and as long as you run away as much as you can from the so called stock experts who write free stuff on internet about how you can make money from stock. A proper training for stock costs at least 250$ and it can save you to waste time by uploading what the so called experts think that will bring you money.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-24-2020 at 05:02 AM.
07-24-2020, 05:06 AM - 4 Likes   #57
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It's great that you make money from Stock photography and you're good at it but ultimately, stock photography is a race to the bottom, I can't see any way it won't ever be unless some go out of business. I can't imagine that you won't make less and less money from it as margins get squeezed and percentages paid out go down. In the meantime, well done and good luck.
07-24-2020, 06:36 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by 3by2 Quote
It's great that you make money from Stock photography and you're good at it but ultimately, stock photography is a race to the bottom, I can't see any way it won't ever be unless some go out of business. I can't imagine that you won't make less and less money from it as margins get squeezed and percentages paid out go down. In the meantime, well done and good luck.
5 years ago, when I went to a microstock training out of professional curiosity given the fact that I own a training company and I'm always interested in all kind of trainings, people told me "you can't make money anymore from stock" and "stock industry it's a race to the bottom" or "they pay you peanuts". In January 2018, when I finally decided to start uploading images to stock agencies, a lot of people told me the same, that you can't make money anymore from stock. Until November 2018 I started to think they are right because of the stock "experts" who influenced my approach. Winter holidays came and I had some free time to make an analysis of the 2018 in terms of income and dirrections to go for 2019. I was also lucky to find a top contributor kind enough to give me some tips and suggestions and in February 2019 I started to put them into practice. Since then, my income slowly grows month after month. What hasn't change during these 5 years since my first contact to stock market? Only what a lot of people still tells me, that we can't make money from stock photos of videos. Clackers is one of them and he not even tried for himself to see if works or not.

QuoteOriginally posted by 3by2 Quote
In the meantime, well done and good luck.
Thank you, much apreciated!
07-24-2020, 06:26 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Clackers is one of them and he not even tried for himself to see if works or not.
And I won't be, Dan.

The Northrups of course used to be stock photographers and got out of the game because there were better things they could do with their spare time.

There's *another* occupation that you might urge people to do - videologging for money, where I would counsel against it.

Look at what happened to The Cameraville Guy.

Most people just cannot get a justifiable return, whatever your extravagant claims.

Last edited by clackers; 07-24-2020 at 06:42 PM.
07-24-2020, 07:02 PM   #60
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Let’s get this thread back on topic or close it. I don’t care which, but we can’t keep on having this same argument over and over and over with the same couple posters on any and every thread.
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