What if you get a K1 in a K3 APS-C package?

ggascay · 07-31-2020, 06:05 AM - **1 Like**

What if Pentax gives us a K-3 APS-C style camera that can take K-1 images?

What if the new Full Frame Optical ViewFinder is only half the equation that we must first fully understand, to a much larger, groundbreaking announcement?
What if all this specific talk about a Full Frame Optical ViewFinder, specifically in an APS-C camera, is to prepare us for a new “industry first” feature, never before seen in APS-C cameras?
What if they were able to “reverse” the K1 crop mode, to allow the APS-C sensor to have a Full Frame mode that takes a Full Frame picture? Is this why all the fanfare about why they really want us to know how big and how good the optical viewfinder is?
I had thought about this for a while and how it could be done, and have come up with part of the solution. By using the sensor shift functionality (improved system) the sensor can be moved within the image circle to capture more of the image than APS-C normally would. Similar to a pixel shift image, but by combining the first standard image with increased edge extensions to expand the entire image into a much larger field of view...
You could not frame such an image in an EVF, only in optical, so it is tech that could only be used in a DSLR.
What if Pentax gives us an APS-C K3 style camera that can take K1 images?

Kunzite · 07-31-2020, 06:18 AM - **1 Like**

The camera is APS-C sized, period. Sorry.
There's no room for such large movements, the viewfinder is APS-C sized and you won't be able to frame, the process wouldn't be seamless - with several frames taken at slightly different times...

Please don't set yourself up for disappointment by "inventing" features which won't be included.

Wasp · 07-31-2020, 06:31 AM - **1 Like**

One of the selling points of full frame is less depth of field. That is a good thing. To some, less (DOF) is more (bokeh). Moving the crop sensor around won't give you this full frame shallow DOF.

While the IBIS can move the sensor around, I doubt that it can move around enough to cover the full frame image circle.

A full frame OVF will need a full frame sized mirror, which will need a full frame sized body. The end result will be something like the Z50 - crop sensor surrounded by full frame hardware. With every lens change the hapless owner gazes upon the little sensor and is reminded that he could ~~not afford to~~ have run with the big dogs.

D1N0 · 07-31-2020, 06:44 AM - **2 Likes**

what if Ricoh acquires Sony and renames the Alpha Series to Pentax?

**monochrome** · 07-31-2020, 06:52 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by D1N0

what if Ricoh acquires Sony and renames the Alpha Series to Pentax?

That would be an interesting investment feat. All of Ricoh might be smaller than Sony’s new imaging division.

MMVIII · 07-31-2020, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by Wasp

One of the selling points of full frame is less depth of field. That is a good thing. To some, less (DOF) is more (bokeh). Moving the crop sensor around won't give you this full frame shallow DOF.

While the IBIS can move the sensor around, I doubt that it can move around enough to cover the full frame image circle.

A full frame OVF will need a full frame sized mirror, which will need a full frame sized body. The end result will be something like the Z50 - crop sensor surrounded by full frame hardware. With every lens change the hapless owner gazes upon the little sensor and is reminded that he could ~~not afford to~~ have run with the big dogs.

Well, while I don't think this is likely to be implemented, but AFAIK this would not be the consequence of such a technique. DOF/bokeh etc. are solely dependent on a common agreement of the size of airy disks, which describe if a point in the image is still in focus. But this agreement on disk size changes with the size of the sensor or (just the same) the effectively exposed area. If you use a DOF calculator you have to put in the sensor size, for exactly this information. The reason is that you have to enlarge the smaller sensor more and thus smaller airy disks will be considered unsharp as on the larger sensor. This would be the case for a combined shifted image too, the magnification necessary would be less just like with the larger sensor.

**sergysergy** · 07-31-2020, 07:41 AM - **2 Likes**

From the title I thought you had bought a K3 and received a K1

**pres589** · 07-31-2020, 07:43 AM

What if Ricoh picked up an MZ-3 and put the K-1's sensor in it and added a bluetooth module for linking to a phone for chimping?

swanlefitte · 07-31-2020, 07:43 AM

How about a focus screen made out of a material that glows green when not enough light hits it and when too much hits it, it turns red? Hybrid ovf shows clipping.

As for liveview, why not have spectacles that plug into the camera and overlay a view over one side? Even a lens piece like a jewelers loop tethered would give so much freedom of movement.

Kunzite · 07-31-2020, 07:45 AM - **3 Likes**

How about... people would read this?
Speculative threads belong elsewhere! - PentaxForums.com

stevebrot · 07-31-2020, 07:59 AM - **1 Like**

How about a wire with a disk on one end and the other attached to the camera? One puts the disk between one's teeth and when the light is poor, it shocks the photographer.

Steve

**MossyRocks** · 07-31-2020, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by swanlefitte

How about a focus screen made out of a material that glows green when not enough light hits it

Only if I can turn it off. That would piss me off doing astro shooting.

ggascay · 07-31-2020, 08:32 AM - **2 Likes**

Consider Pixel shift already takes multiple shots with the sensor shifting between shots and combines them into a single shot. This would be an extension of that. The only way to frame your shot would be with an extended full frame optical view finder - Seems impossible to replicate in live view or EVF and would be a reason they are touting the full frame image in the viewfinder.
It would offer both the standard crop field of view and the full frame field of view when used in “reverse crop” mode. The extended image captured is added/stitched to the original image.
Think Brenizer Method built into the camera, done in one shot (technically one shutter press, but multiple shots).

---------- Post added 07-31-20 at 09:09 AM ----------

Here is a better video from PentaxForums explaining the composition adjust process, but consider it being done automatically with a single shutter and with greater adjustment variance,

You Tube

**PJ1** · 07-31-2020, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by ggascay

What if Pentax gives us a K-3 APS-C style camera that can take K-1 images?

This thread is becoming a bit silly. An image falling on the FF sensor can be cropped to APS-C. But an image falling on an APS-C sensor cannot be expanded to FF. You could add extra pixels by interpolation and create a bigger file, but that would be pointless as the angle of view would still be that of APS-C. You cannot capture anything that falls outside the sensor. Although (and you may want to patent this) you could have your APS-C sensor and also, at the end of each diagonal, a 1/2.33 sensor - so four in all. That would give you a theoretical 33.76 x 23.6 coverage or roughly FF and you could develop software to combine the images. It would be cheaper to just build the camera as FF in the first place.

ggascay · 07-31-2020, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by PJ1

This thread is becoming a bit silly. An image falling on the FF sensor can be cropped to APS-C. But an image falling on an APS-C sensor cannot be expanded to FF. You could add extra pixels by interpolation and create a bigger file, but that would be pointless as the angle of view would still be that of APS-C. You cannot capture anything that falls outside the sensor. Although (and you may want to patent this) you could have your APS-C sensor and also, at the end of each diagonal, a 1/2.33 sensor - so four in all. That would give you a theoretical 33.76 x 23.6 coverage or roughly FF and you could develop software to combine the images. It would be cheaper to just build the camera as FF in the first place.

You have never used the Composition adjust feature? Same thing as composition adjust and stitching together the images in camera instead of in post as in the video - or potentially using the individual files in post. The sensor already moves 3mm on each access to capture individual shots.

07-31-2020, 06:05 AM - 1 Like	#1
ggascay Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Dunnellon, FL Photos: Gallery Posts: 61	What if you get a K1 in a K3 APS-C package? What if Pentax gives us a K-3 APS-C style camera that can take K-1 images? What if the new Full Frame Optical ViewFinder is only half the equation that we must first fully understand, to a much larger, groundbreaking announcement? What if all this specific talk about a Full Frame Optical ViewFinder, specifically in an APS-C camera, is to prepare us for a new “industry first” feature, never before seen in APS-C cameras? What if they were able to “reverse” the K1 crop mode, to allow the APS-C sensor to have a Full Frame mode that takes a Full Frame picture? Is this why all the fanfare about why they really want us to know how big and how good the optical viewfinder is? I had thought about this for a while and how it could be done, and have come up with part of the solution. By using the sensor shift functionality (improved system) the sensor can be moved within the image circle to capture more of the image than APS-C normally would. Similar to a pixel shift image, but by combining the first standard image with increased edge extensions to expand the entire image into a much larger field of view... You could not frame such an image in an EVF, only in optical, so it is tech that could only be used in a DSLR. What if Pentax gives us an APS-C K3 style camera that can take K1 images?

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07-31-2020, 06:18 AM - 1 Like	#2
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	The camera is APS-C sized, period. Sorry. There's no room for such large movements, the viewfinder is APS-C sized and you won't be able to frame, the process wouldn't be seamless - with several frames taken at slightly different times... Please don't set yourself up for disappointment by "inventing" features which won't be included.

07-31-2020, 06:31 AM - 1 Like	#3
Wasp Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Pretoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,660	One of the selling points of full frame is less depth of field. That is a good thing. To some, less (DOF) is more (bokeh). Moving the crop sensor around won't give you this full frame shallow DOF. While the IBIS can move the sensor around, I doubt that it can move around enough to cover the full frame image circle. A full frame OVF will need a full frame sized mirror, which will need a full frame sized body. The end result will be something like the Z50 - crop sensor surrounded by full frame hardware. With every lens change the hapless owner gazes upon the little sensor and is reminded that he could ~~not afford to~~ have run with the big dogs.

07-31-2020, 06:44 AM - 2 Likes	#4
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	what if Ricoh acquires Sony and renames the Alpha Series to Pentax?

07-31-2020, 06:52 AM - 2 Likes	#5
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by D1N0 what if Ricoh acquires Sony and renames the Alpha Series to Pentax? That would be an interesting investment feat. All of Ricoh might be smaller than Sony’s new imaging division.

07-31-2020, 07:26 AM	#6
MMVIII Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: EU Posts: 1,121	Originally posted by Wasp One of the selling points of full frame is less depth of field. That is a good thing. To some, less (DOF) is more (bokeh). Moving the crop sensor around won't give you this full frame shallow DOF. While the IBIS can move the sensor around, I doubt that it can move around enough to cover the full frame image circle. A full frame OVF will need a full frame sized mirror, which will need a full frame sized body. The end result will be something like the Z50 - crop sensor surrounded by full frame hardware. With every lens change the hapless owner gazes upon the little sensor and is reminded that he could ~~not afford to~~ have run with the big dogs. Well, while I don't think this is likely to be implemented, but AFAIK this would not be the consequence of such a technique. DOF/bokeh etc. are solely dependent on a common agreement of the size of airy disks, which describe if a point in the image is still in focus. But this agreement on disk size changes with the size of the sensor or (just the same) the effectively exposed area. If you use a DOF calculator you have to put in the sensor size, for exactly this information. The reason is that you have to enlarge the smaller sensor more and thus smaller airy disks will be considered unsharp as on the larger sensor. This would be the case for a combined shifted image too, the magnification necessary would be less just like with the larger sensor.

07-31-2020, 07:41 AM - 2 Likes	#7
sergysergy Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,170	From the title I thought you had bought a K3 and received a K1

07-31-2020, 07:43 AM	#8
pres589 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Wichita, KS Photos: Albums Posts: 4,529	What if Ricoh picked up an MZ-3 and put the K-1's sensor in it and added a bluetooth module for linking to a phone for chimping?

07-31-2020, 07:43 AM	#9
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	How about a focus screen made out of a material that glows green when not enough light hits it and when too much hits it, it turns red? Hybrid ovf shows clipping. As for liveview, why not have spectacles that plug into the camera and overlay a view over one side? Even a lens piece like a jewelers loop tethered would give so much freedom of movement.

07-31-2020, 07:45 AM - 3 Likes	#10
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	How about... people would read this? Speculative threads belong elsewhere! - PentaxForums.com

07-31-2020, 07:59 AM - 1 Like	#11
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	How about a wire with a disk on one end and the other attached to the camera? One puts the disk between one's teeth and when the light is poor, it shocks the photographer. Steve

07-31-2020, 08:07 AM	#12
MossyRocks Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,982	Originally posted by swanlefitte How about a focus screen made out of a material that glows green when not enough light hits it Only if I can turn it off. That would piss me off doing astro shooting.

07-31-2020, 03:03 PM	#14
PJ1 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Toowoomba, Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,484	Originally posted by ggascay What if Pentax gives us a K-3 APS-C style camera that can take K-1 images? This thread is becoming a bit silly. An image falling on the FF sensor can be cropped to APS-C. But an image falling on an APS-C sensor cannot be expanded to FF. You could add extra pixels by interpolation and create a bigger file, but that would be pointless as the angle of view would still be that of APS-C. You cannot capture anything that falls outside the sensor. Although (and you may want to patent this) you could have your APS-C sensor and also, at the end of each diagonal, a 1/2.33 sensor - so four in all. That would give you a theoretical 33.76 x 23.6 coverage or roughly FF and you could develop software to combine the images. It would be cheaper to just build the camera as FF in the first place.

07-31-2020, 03:12 PM	#15
ggascay Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Dunnellon, FL Photos: Gallery Posts: 61 Original Poster	Originally posted by PJ1 This thread is becoming a bit silly. An image falling on the FF sensor can be cropped to APS-C. But an image falling on an APS-C sensor cannot be expanded to FF. You could add extra pixels by interpolation and create a bigger file, but that would be pointless as the angle of view would still be that of APS-C. You cannot capture anything that falls outside the sensor. Although (and you may want to patent this) you could have your APS-C sensor and also, at the end of each diagonal, a 1/2.33 sensor - so four in all. That would give you a theoretical 33.76 x 23.6 coverage or roughly FF and you could develop software to combine the images. It would be cheaper to just build the camera as FF in the first place. You have never used the Composition adjust feature? Same thing as composition adjust and stitching together the images in camera instead of in post as in the video - or potentially using the individual files in post. The sensor already moves 3mm on each access to capture individual shots.