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10-14-2020, 05:52 AM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It will no more kill APS cameras than 645 camera killed off pro 35mm slr's.....
A relevant question is: whats going on? It cost $3700. Canon obviously want to get rid of them. It seems that they have to "give" them away in order to do so.....
APS-C is relevant mostly because of price and size. For example, in Pentax world you can get a KP and a 55-300PLM for $1000. The equivalent full-frame setup is a K-1ii and a 150-450 which is probably three or four times as heavy and costs over $3000. Better quality photos with FF, but almost all of that is in edge cases. The KP setup will get you brilliant quality most of the time.


If you can really get a 50Mp Canon full frame for $1300, and a 100-400mm lens for $700... well, that's not too bad. Still twice as much as a the KP setup, but a lot more pixels in a larger sensor. Still a bigger camera and lens, and the lenses to fill out your lineup are probably also a lot more expensive and mostly bigger than APS-C. But image quality is probably great, and the gap is closing.

Yep, I'm interested in why they cut the price by 2/3rds. That can't be sustainable except as a very short-term marketing thing. There's no way they were clearing $2000 profit on each camera.

10-14-2020, 06:18 AM   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
APS-C is relevant mostly because of price and size. For example, in Pentax world you can get a KP and a 55-300PLM for $1000. The equivalent full-frame setup is a K-1ii and a 150-450 which is probably three or four times as heavy and costs over $3000. Better quality photos with FF, but almost all of that is in edge cases. The KP setup will get you brilliant quality most of the time.


If you can really get a 50Mp Canon full frame for $1300, and a 100-400mm lens for $700... well, that's not too bad. Still twice as much as a the KP setup, but a lot more pixels in a larger sensor. Still a bigger camera and lens, and the lenses to fill out your lineup are probably also a lot more expensive and mostly bigger than APS-C. But image quality is probably great, and the gap is closing.

Yep, I'm interested in why they cut the price by 2/3rds. That can't be sustainable except as a very short-term marketing thing. There's no way they were clearing $2000 profit on each camera.
Just a tad less than 3 times as heavy - 3.3 kg vs 1.2 kg, but a tad more than 3 times the price in the US - About $3800 for the FF vs $1200 of APS-C.

It *should* also be noted that the Canon 5DS for all of its megapixels has lower DR at low ISO than the KP (by about 0.6 stops which is roughly the difference between the KP and a better FF camera). The KP will make pictures that are every bit as good. It's also an old model from 2015 so I am fairly certain they are just dropping the last remaining few like hot potatoes.
10-14-2020, 06:52 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It will no more kill APS cameras than 645 camera killed off pro 35mm slr's.....
Agreed....for the most part.
QuoteQuote:
A relevant question is: whats going on? It cost $3700. Canon obviously want to get rid of them. It seems that they have to "give" them away in order to do so.....
My recollection is that it was a pretty niche camera, great at base iso, but not nearly as good as a lot of close competitors at higher iso's. So, it's a tripod/studio unit. At this price it's a great deal for Canon FF folks, though.
10-15-2020, 02:57 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by jersey Quote
I have one issue with price, not matter how high or low it will be. Will there be another APS-C camera ever? With FF prices dropping, electronics getting more compact K-New may be last APS-C and next Pentax cameras will be FF only. Investing in APS-C may be a bit risky.
It seems clear that Pentax and Fuji, at the least, are committed to APS-C. They have full APS-C lens line ups. The cameras will likely be spaced out a bit over time. It is harder these days to bring better specs to the table and consumers aren't interested in replacing their cameras as often.

Every sensor size is a compromise. APS-C tends to be a little smaller than full frame with regard to size of cameras and lenses, but more than that, you get more for the same money compared to full frame. Entry level full frame money will get you a bare bones camera which will probably not satisfy in the long run, while it will get a pretty fully specified APS-C camera with faster frame rate, better video, etc. I expect APS-C and micro four thirds to stick around for quite awhile, just without as frequent releases as there were in the early 2000s.

10-15-2020, 11:18 AM - 2 Likes   #215
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APS-C and FF are pretty close in results these days. So long as you aren't shopping for a huge amount of megapixels.


Sensors from about 2014 on are now all pretty close for performance so the cameras will need something more to attract sales. A little more ISO performance at 100,000 isn't enough to get a person to spend a few grand.

I think Pentax can still do something with APS-C it's more a what does this K-new do that is better than the K-3 or KP? Both of them have good sensors and I can't see the replacement having much more than a marginal increase in performance to the point of being negligible the way sensors have been for the past 5 years.

Everyone's got IBIS now, maybe sync IBIS like Olympus was up to where you can handhold in the dark for 10 seconds. That's actually a pretty nice feature. That would need new lenses though.

I'd like to see expanded catch in focus with the use of an APP for nature photography. Make that feature the premiere for camera traps amongst the brands.

I'd like to see AI algorithms merging multiple RAW files to greatly enhance the DR capability of the camera. Similar to pixel shift but for DR enhancement. Have algorithms edit in-camera similar to how Luminar 4 or upcoming AI work, that saves a ton of time and gets great results.

Beat everyone at camera/phone integration. A share direct button customizable to drop the shot you just took or selected into your photo album on ios or android, no hooking things up, no opening apps and connecting, just direct and without fuss. Have options to drop them right into the lightroom app so everything ready to go for editing strait away. (Editing on Ipads is great, files can sync by cloud off the phone while your out shooting).

I want the Olympus Live Bulb, Live Composite etc on Pentax or equivalent. Lightning mode would be great. Dynamic Range mode where it multi exposes and merges a RAW with enhanced highlight and shadow data. These are things that can improve a camera with the current sensor tech.

Maybe even presets that you can build outside the camera and import in to have done in camera as you shoot. That would be a cool feature. So you can develop plugin's to your desire and have the camera automate that editing so it's done and ready after shooting.

Otherwise this is a tough sell for 1500-2000. Really what can it do better?
10-15-2020, 01:31 PM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
APS-C and FF are pretty close in results these days. So long as you aren't shopping for a huge amount of megapixels.


Sensors from about 2014 on are now all pretty close for performance so the cameras will need something more to attract sales. A little more ISO performance at 100,000 isn't enough to get a person to spend a few grand.

I think Pentax can still do something with APS-C it's more a what does this K-new do that is better than the K-3 or KP? Both of them have good sensors and I can't see the replacement having much more than a marginal increase in performance to the point of being negligible the way sensors have been for the past 5 years.

Everyone's got IBIS now, maybe sync IBIS like Olympus was up to where you can handhold in the dark for 10 seconds. That's actually a pretty nice feature. That would need new lenses though.

I'd like to see expanded catch in focus with the use of an APP for nature photography. Make that feature the premiere for camera traps amongst the brands.

I'd like to see AI algorithms merging multiple RAW files to greatly enhance the DR capability of the camera. Similar to pixel shift but for DR enhancement. Have algorithms edit in-camera similar to how Luminar 4 or upcoming AI work, that saves a ton of time and gets great results.

Beat everyone at camera/phone integration. A share direct button customizable to drop the shot you just took or selected into your photo album on ios or android, no hooking things up, no opening apps and connecting, just direct and without fuss. Have options to drop them right into the lightroom app so everything ready to go for editing strait away. (Editing on Ipads is great, files can sync by cloud off the phone while your out shooting).

I want the Olympus Live Bulb, Live Composite etc on Pentax or equivalent. Lightning mode would be great. Dynamic Range mode where it multi exposes and merges a RAW with enhanced highlight and shadow data. These are things that can improve a camera with the current sensor tech.

Maybe even presets that you can build outside the camera and import in to have done in camera as you shoot. That would be a cool feature. So you can develop plugin's to your desire and have the camera automate that editing so it's done and ready after shooting.

Otherwise this is a tough sell for 1500-2000. Really what can it do better?
I like most of those ideas, those type of things are differentiators that will sell cameras. For years I've been saying that someone who made a good camera and then added on computational features pioneered on phones would really have something. You could do super dynamic range, super pixel shift, stuff that makes microscopic phone sensors look good would make an APS-C or FF shot look like it's from another planet.

But as for the K-new it can do several things better, like vastly better tracking autofocus, like better frame rates, like clearing the buffer almost instantly, like having a bottomless RAW buffer. Adding D500-like features to the Pentax ecosystem and existing feature set.
10-15-2020, 02:30 PM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
new Pentax FF 21mm is as big as the 31mm and will almost certainly cost $1000. The DA15 isn't going to match it in corner-to-corner pixel peeping image quality but is smaller and probably half the price or less.
I am extremely happy with my KP and K-5 IIs, for both of which I have the battery grip, with my little K-S2 for an extra-light backup or alternate. This lens has become more interesting to me than the K-new, for which it is looking like I will pay zero. If it will be only the size of the FA 31mm that would be amazing if it is f/2.8 or preferably faster, and with fine optical quality. I have and love the DA 15mm LTD, as well as the DA 21mm, but a new 21mm LTD FF lens that is faster and better would be very attractive. The K-1 II is beginning to look more intriguing to me, since I have some fine FF lenses, but I will first wait to see what the FF K-new will be like.

Last edited by mikesbike; 10-15-2020 at 02:35 PM.
10-16-2020, 04:17 AM   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
I am extremely happy with my KP and K-5 IIs, for both of which I have the battery grip, with my little K-S2 for an extra-light backup or alternate. This lens has become more interesting to me than the K-new, for which it is looking like I will pay zero. If it will be only the size of the FA 31mm that would be amazing if it is f/2.8 or preferably faster, and with fine optical quality. I have and love the DA 15mm LTD, as well as the DA 21mm, but a new 21mm LTD FF lens that is faster and better would be very attractive. The K-1 II is beginning to look more intriguing to me, since I have some fine FF lenses, but I will first wait to see what the FF K-new will be like.
I have a 21mm LTD and the 20-40mm LTD. That's already a little bit of overkill. Of all my priorities yet another 21mm with somewhat better qualities isn't anywhere close to the top, especially at its likely price.

It would be somewhat more attractive if someone gifted me a K-1 or K-1ii. But that's not happening.

10-16-2020, 04:21 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I have a 21mm LTD and the 20-40mm LTD. That's already a little bit of overkill. Of all my priorities yet another 21mm with somewhat better qualities isn't anywhere close to the top, especially at its likely price.

It would be somewhat more attractive if someone gifted me a K-1 or K-1ii. But that's not happening.
I'm really looking forward to the D FA 21, actually - I have the M20/4 pancake which puts in a lot of work and gets very nice results, but something faster with better corners for large prints would be welcome. Let's see how much it goes for.
10-16-2020, 06:01 PM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I'm really looking forward to the D FA 21, actually - I have the M20/4 pancake which puts in a lot of work and gets very nice results, but something faster with better corners for large prints would be welcome. Let's see how much it goes for.
Right. The DA 21mm is very good, but a FF 21mm LTD is another story. Usable on APS-C too, but providing a very wide angle on FF. Not either/or with the FA 31mm, since the FL is in a totally different realm.
10-17-2020, 04:16 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
Right. The DA 21mm is very good, but a FF 21mm LTD is another story. Usable on APS-C too, but providing a very wide angle on FF. Not either/or with the FA 31mm, since the FL is in a totally different realm.
The 21mm on K-1 FF will be wider than DA15 on APS-C and have the advantage of being more zoomed in than using 15mm.

It should have been released years ago, it will sell well as many people have a dislike of the 15-30 monster lens as it is just too big, heavy and cumbersome.
10-17-2020, 04:46 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by nocturnal Quote
The 21mm on K-1 FF will be wider than DA15 on APS-C and have the advantage of being more zoomed in than using 15mm.
???
10-17-2020, 06:42 AM   #223
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Really depends on the features, but 1,800 is about what flag ship cameras go for.
10-31-2020, 03:35 PM   #224
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Ok
So, we were not all that far off after all. MSRP estimated to be around $2,000. It will come down to $1,500 in 6 months to a year I say.
10-31-2020, 03:55 PM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobbotron Quote
Really depends on the features, but 1,800 is about what flag ship cameras go for.
Would you think we'll see CAD $2,300-2,500?

- Craig
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