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10-13-2020, 05:01 AM - 2 Likes   #151
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I don't understand how cannot notice it. It is very annoying. It irritates me that I have to manually turn off the back display on my K-3 when using the level screen when the camera is on a tripod (for vertical shots).

10-13-2020, 05:47 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I don't understand how cannot notice it. It is very annoying. It irritates me that I have to manually turn off the back display on my K-3 when using the level screen when the camera is on a tripod (for vertical shots).
It might have to do with the fact that I'm a left eye shooter so I'm basically covering the entire screen with my cheek - but the fact of the matter remains. With the K-7 I took forever to realize I could turn off the LCD
If the camera is on a tripod it's typically because I want to shoot at an angle where the screen is flipped, so LV it is.

With all the talk over a million threads by a hundred people saying that a flippy screen is unneeded and that a refconverter, a phone or buying a different camera are perfectly reasonable solutions, it would be very ironic to claim that an eye sensor is critical when two button pushes fix the issue

And to be clear, I'm down for any extra features that Ricoh throws in - this is mostly tongue in cheek (and cheek on LCD ). I just don't hink they'd add the sensor without a touchscreen, particularly when said screen looks almost the same as the one in the GRiii (which is touch-enabled) or even the A7R4 one...

Last edited by Serkevan; 10-13-2020 at 05:53 AM.
10-13-2020, 08:32 AM - 1 Like   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
It might have to do with the fact that I'm a left eye shooter so I'm basically covering the entire screen with my cheek - but the fact of the matter remains. With the K-7 I took forever to realize I could turn off the LCD
If the camera is on a tripod it's typically because I want to shoot at an angle where the screen is flipped, so LV it is.

With all the talk over a million threads by a hundred people saying that a flippy screen is unneeded and that a refconverter, a phone or buying a different camera are perfectly reasonable solutions, it would be very ironic to claim that an eye sensor is critical when two button pushes fix the issue

And to be clear, I'm down for any extra features that Ricoh throws in - this is mostly tongue in cheek (and cheek on LCD ). I just don't hink they'd add the sensor without a touchscreen, particularly when said screen looks almost the same as the one in the GRiii (which is touch-enabled) or even the A7R4 one...
I'm a left eye shooter, with glasses, and at night it's quite annoying, sometimes being blinding if I forget to turn off the preview and am already on night vision.
I'm constantly turning it off if I'm using the KP (no top LCD for adjustments). Night mode helps with the blinding, but it's always distracting.
Must be something in the way you use your camera, that you don't have a problem when most people do, and they even add a sensor to deal with it (hope it's not for a touchscreen).

Is there a list of all the little things that Pentax has that others don't, like TAv mode? Would night mode and mount LEDs be there? Maybe there should be.
10-13-2020, 02:10 PM - 10 Likes   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
You see, this is what I am getting at. Just appealing to people "into" using the Pentax system does not do well to expand the customer base. So, much else does matter!

Offering ALL of both the advantages unique to Pentax AND everything the competition can do (which in the case of the more useful screen other premium Pentax models already can do) is what a new "flagship" should be all about.
You seem to be saying that because the camera doesn't appeal to you personally, it won't appeal to anyone.
Thats a pretty arrogant point of view if this is the case.
Pentax isn't going after the mass market. The reasons for this are because pretty soon that market will cease to exist, and mass market needs mass sales, something Pentax knows isn't going to happen.

Pentax listens to it's user base and reacts to it.

This is why we got a sweet 50mm lens a few years ago and a nice 85mm lens this year. These two lenses were what the user base wanted first, and that was the order we desired them to come in.
Its safe to presume that, according to the users that Pentax listens to, the new camera will have the feature set that they find important and will leave off features that aren't important.
I really don't understand the moaning about the fixed screen. People, get over yourselves, put on your big boy pants, and stop whining.

10-13-2020, 02:28 PM - 1 Like   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
Anyway, I detect BS. A moveable screen would add depth than a fixed one, and we can debate just how much, but there is no reason it should require more area around it.
Do you?
The articulated screen does require more area around it, as the LCD is surrounded by a frame.
Some types of articulated screens also have a lateral hinge; that needs space, too.
10-13-2020, 04:20 PM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
You seem to be saying that because the camera doesn't appeal to you personally, it won't appeal to anyone.
Thats a pretty arrogant point of view if this is the case
I am not saying that- what I am saying is the competition is offering a feature that Pentax will not have, and there is a likelihood this feature has more universal appeal- not just to myself. That is my opinion. if you think that is being arrogant, that is your opinion and you have a right to it. I will stand by my opinion, which does not include a negative personal evaluation of anyone who might feel otherwise.

Many people also like touch screens- I do not. I would rather have more traditional controls, especially when it comes to the smaller screens necessary on a DSLR. My newer car came with a touchscreen, which is much larger than any on a DSLR, yet I find it so easy to hit an adjacent control instead of the one desired, especially when on the fly (driving). But that is just me. I know my car's touch screen allows more functions to fit into the same space.

And I know for sure I am far from alone in objecting to automakers doing away with CD players. I am glad my newer car model still has one. Voice activation to select a recording by a service requiring paying for a subscription, and often not understanding which recording I want played, is distracting and is not catering to as wide a customer base either. Slipping a disc into a slot is quite easy and fast. But I loved my 10 CD changer in my previous car.

Last edited by mikesbike; 10-13-2020 at 04:39 PM.
10-13-2020, 04:28 PM - 1 Like   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
I am not saying that- what I am saying is the competition is offering a feature that Pentax will not have, and there is a likelihood this feature has more universal appeal- not just to myself. That is my opinion. if you think that is being arrogant, that is your opinion and you have a right to it. I will stand by my opinion, which does not include a negative personal evaluation of anyone who might feel otherwise.
At the same time, Pentax offers many features that the competition doesn't have, including, if the early reports are true, a larger than life viewfinder.
This fact seems to be missing from the narrative of whining that is overtaking these threads.
10-13-2020, 06:51 PM   #158
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Any criticism offered in good faith, not just name-calling is inappropriately described as "whining".

---------- Post added 10-13-20 at 06:55 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Pentax offers many features that the competition doesn't have, including, if the early reports are true, a larger than life viewfinde
I appreciate any positive advancements. However, a DSLR is a box full of tools. When one has certain needs, and there are useful tools for those needs, one goes to the tool box, hoping those tools will be there. This is even more true if certain tools have been in use, but are now missing. For those not having or not using such tools, for them they might see these as superfluous, not missing what they have not used.


Last edited by mikesbike; 10-13-2020 at 06:59 PM.
10-13-2020, 08:15 PM - 2 Likes   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
This is even more true if certain tools have been in use, but are now missing.
They never took anything away from the APS-C flagship series.
The K-3 or K-3ii didn't have a flippy. No Pentax APS-C flagship ever had a flippy.
If one needs a flippy so badly, Pentax has other offerings with a flippy.
No one has said Pentax will never again release a camera without a flippy.
They are continuing their theme/style of APS-C flagship - a theme without a flippy.
10-14-2020, 12:08 AM - 1 Like   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
They never took anything away from the APS-C flagship series.
The K-3 or K-3ii didn't have a flippy. No Pentax APS-C flagship ever had a flippy.
If one needs a flippy so badly, Pentax has other offerings with a flippy.
No one has said Pentax will never again release a camera without a flippy.
They are continuing their theme/style of APS-C flagship - a theme without a flippy.
Small correction: they took away the flash and the metering mode lever, which is the only complaint I have with the K-1's layout, the lock lever is useless to me.

With that logic, they shouldn't have added the eye sensor, since it wasn't there before. They shouldn't have added GPS either - especially not at the expense of flash. And yet, people got over it in the K-3ii and Astrotracer turned out to be a good feature.
10-14-2020, 01:34 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
They never took anything away from the APS-C flagship series.
The K-3 or K-3ii didn't have a flippy. No Pentax APS-C flagship ever had a flippy.
If one needs a flippy so badly, Pentax has other offerings with a flippy.
No one has said Pentax will never again release a camera without a flippy.
They are continuing their theme/style of APS-C flagship - a theme without a flippy.
True, but the basic K-3 design had none- so they simply continued the K-3 line with some modifications. In the meantime, the moveable screen came along. In fact, embraced in the Pentax K-1, a flagship! Perhaps the first-ever FF DSLR to have a pull-out rear screen, which is cool. It is not unreasonable to expect the same advancement in a new APS-C flagship, since it has been so introduced, and continued in the very advanced KP- a rather junior version of the K-1 II in design but having a built-in flash as well.
10-14-2020, 02:50 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Pentax isn't going after the mass market. The reasons for this are because pretty soon that market will cease to exist, and mass market needs mass sales, something Pentax knows isn't going to happen.Pentax listens to it's user base and reacts to it.
We know there is no future "mass market" - a market like there was in the early DSLR years when every Joe was buying one, and even the consumer companies, Sony and Panasonic, joined in.

Of course the future "real" camera market is a specialist one for serious amateurs and pros. But Pentax needs to try to appeal to the whole of that specialist market, or die. Appealing to their existing user base is not enough because that will diminish, not least because of its apparent age profile. It is too much to expect Pentax to go mirrorless at the present time, so it is not a bad alternative stategy to be improving OVF tech. But omitting features that people will expect on a "flagship" in 2020, even ones that are relatively easy wins, is a bad idea. To omit at least a top-hinged screen to save a few millimeters, grams and $50 is a nonsense. I have never seen a prospective buyer in a camera shop (when there were any) take a tape measure to a camera or put it on weigh scales. They are more impressed by the salesman reeling off the feature list.

I have never used more than a fraction of the features on my own DSLRs. GPS- no, program modes - no, in-camera editing - no, WiFi - no, built-in flash - no. But I accept that camera makers must employ a scatter-gun approach to capture the needs of as many users as possible, even if the more experienced users are not impressed by the length of the feature list for its own sake. Of course, we cannot have everything and compromises must be made - the K-1 dropped built-in flash to make space for GPS and we could argue all day whether built-in-flash is handy, or is a P&S feature out of place on such a camera.

As for Pentax listening to its user base, how do we know if they are, and are they acting on it anyway? Cameraville's YouTube channel did a survey and found 2/3 of responders are disapponted if K-new has no flip screen. I know, small sample from a maybe non-typical population, but have we any other measures?

Last edited by Lord Lucan; 10-14-2020 at 02:52 AM. Reason: Tpyo
10-14-2020, 03:22 AM - 7 Likes   #163
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I'll say just once more (in case I hadn't said it enough already )... We can be absolutely confident that Ricoh has thought this through comprehensively with numerous iterations and revisions along the way, and knows exactly what it is doing and why. With my sincere respect to all those involved in this discussion, it strikes me as highly presumptuous for any of us to assume this isn't the case - to believe that Ricoh has somehow miscalculated, not researched the market properly, or even forgotten to include some feature or other - and to suggest we might know better than Ricoh's imaging division when we have no knowledge of its business plan, strategy for delivering to this, or commercial / financial expectations. We're perfectly at liberty to disagree with its design decisions as they pertain to us individually, but for us to play at being CEO and propose "what Ricoh needs to do" from a position of relative ignorance and on behalf of the entire existing and prospective user base is, ultimately, futile

Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-14-2020 at 03:59 AM.
10-14-2020, 03:26 AM - 2 Likes   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote

Of course the future "real" camera market is a specialist one for serious amateurs and pros. But Pentax needs to try to appeal to the whole of that specialist market, or die.
Eh...no....
10-14-2020, 03:59 AM - 3 Likes   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I'll say just once more (in case I hadn't said it enough already )... We can be confident that Ricoh knows exactly what it is doing and has thought this through comprehensively, with numerous iterations and revisions along the way. With my sincere respect to all those involved in this discussion, it strikes me as highly presumptuous for any of us to assume this isn't the case, and that we know better than Ricoh's imaging division when we have no idea its business plan, strategy for delivering to this, or commercial / financial expectations. We're perfectly at liberty to disagree with its design decisions, but for us to play at being CEO and propose "what Ricoh needs to do" - from a position of relative ignorance and on behalf of the entire existing and prospective user base - might be entertaining for a small few, but it's ultimately futile
Considering how Ricoh Imaging keeps holding the books in the black (although that's not thanks to Pentax but because of the GR and Theta), I'm confident that they generally know what they are doing.

I think the main issue is that we still don't know some of the most important features of the K-New (IQ, AF and price) - so we can either speculate, or talk about what we do know, which is fairly little. And, unfortunately, one of those few things we know is a feature whose lack is clearly irking a good number of people. And since this is the Internet, everyone seemingly plays armchair designer, CEO, marketer and reviewer in a convenient package

I've mentioned some times that I understand the design brief: large LCD and as compact, tightly-packed and rugged* as possible so they went for a fixed screen. That markets it towards a very specific user, and straight away from myself, but I'm set with my K-1 anyway (and the budget is going the the 21 Limited instead)

*I'd like to see if they managed to put an alloy top shell despite (probably) having a GPS built-in, as that is the weakest part of the K-1.
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