[mikesbike]

The single most important feature in the K-new is that it is a NEW. APS-C. K-MOUNT. camera. Honestly, not much else matters

You see, this is what I am getting at. Just appealing to people "into" using the Pentax system does not do well to expand the customer base. So, much else does matter!

Offering ALL of both the advantages unique to Pentax AND everything the competition can do (which in the case of the more useful screen other premium Pentax models already can do) is what a new "flagship" should be all about.

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Last edited by mikesbike; 10-08-2020 at 02:04 PM.

[jatrax]

You see, this is what I am getting at. Just appealing to people "into" using the Pentax system does not do well to expand the customer base. So, much else does matter!

I disagree. People have been urging Pentax to appeal to 'new' customers for as long as I've owned a camera and Pentax seems just fine moving along with their current customer base. Unlike other companies with huge overhead and manufacturing infrastructure all Pentax has to do is make new cameras for the loyal. Will that run out some day? Sure but I suspect Ricoh doesn't really care because by then maybe DSLRs will be history anyway.
If they really cared about new customers they would be advertising and marketing. They aren't. They are making cameras for people who are 'into' Pentax.

[mikesbike]

I think it probably would sell better if it had one, but certainly it would increase size a bit,

Selling better is very important! Being a "flagship", that very small size increase would be negligible. As it is turning out, even though having a new sensor, VF, etc. in its design concept, it certainly appears to be an advanced K-3 II (which I skipped).

[BigMackCam]

In my case, I am long-time deep in Pentax bodies and glass (decades) so the EOS 90D is not of interest for me. I am trying, on behalf of Pentax making logical decisions, to put myself in the place of potential buyers who wish to step up to a more serious level of equipment, requiring substantially greater investment, who are not so deep into Pentax or other makes. Pentax cannot continue to exist just through upgrades of interest to the same old customer base. Thus they cannot afford omissions. If there is an interest in going upward into more serious equipment for doing both some fast action shooting (good AF and burst speed), and also getting a good macro lens and doing some of that (shooting from low positions where a pull-out rear screen would be very helpful), as to such a potential customer, which would they choose?

I understand and respect your position on this, Mike... but let me ask you, do you honestly believe Ricoh hasn't thought all this stuff through (and more), both before and during the new camera's development? Or is it more plausible that Ricoh put a huge amount of thought into what it wants to release, rather than what individual members or small groups of consensus on forums say it should?

You're an established and respected member here, and your arguments are more thoughtful and better presented than some of the drive-by "what Pentax should do" rants we've all seen over the years... but the constructive value is, unfortunately, the same. We get to have our say by voting with our wallets during the product life of the new camera; by deciding whether-or-not to invest in one. If enough of us do, Ricoh got it right. If not, we'll no doubt see some significant differences (perhaps that flippy screen) in the MkII or next entirely new model

[jatrax]

we'll no doubt see some significant differences (perhaps that flippy screen)

One thing that is evident is that Pentax does learn. Whether that is from monitoring this forum, doing focus groups or watching the sales figures who knows. But they do react. It just seems as if they don't because the reaction time is measured in years. So if there is a enough demand for a particular feature I suspect that it will show up on newer models, though that might be 3 years from now.

[reh321]

You see, this is what I am getting at. Just appealing to people "into" using the Pentax system does not do well to expand the customer base. So, much else does matter!

Offering ALL of both the advantages unique to Pentax AND everything the competition can do (which in the case of the more useful screen other premium Pentax models already can do) is what a new "flagship" should be all about.

They need more than better equipment.

They need to get the attention of the public,and the need to get equipment into camera and other stores where the public can actually handle it.

[Paul the Sunman]

One thing that is evident is that Pentax does learn. Whether that is from monitoring this forum, doing focus groups or watching the sales figures who knows. But they do react. It just seems as if they don't because the reaction time is measured in years. So if there is a enough demand for a particular feature I suspect that it will show up on newer models, though that might be 3 years from now.

That's what they said about improved video a few years ago. They would improve it if there was demand. I would say there is definitely demand now.

[mikesbike]

I disagree. People have been urging Pentax to appeal to 'new' customers for as long as I've owned a camera and Pentax seems just fine moving along with their current customer base.

I do not think this has been true, and it would be suicide if going forth along those lines. It is not true based on real history. Pentax has been the innovator, bringing useful features into existence. The first-ever built-in flash on SLR cameras. This attracted many customers from the point-and-shoot crowd, as well as other more experienced photographers who could see its value in sudden opportunity use. Then there was (and is) the Pentax Hyper System, so efficient and useful. Then there was (and is) WR available in the lower-end tier of cameras and lenses. Offering more features most people would find useful, not less, throughout the entire range of the lineup has been undoubtedly responsible for attracting new customers.

I have at least one actual person in mind. A long-time younger friend who has growing children. He has a smart phone that can take good photos, but told me quite some time ago that his now old Nikon DSLR can nail shots quicker, as young children move quickly and unpredictably. Just 6mp with a kit lens. His kids are getting to the point they will be into athletics soon, and he has been doing some closeups in his very nice garden. He knows I've been shooting with Pentax gear for a long time. By his comments, I can tell the direction he is looking towards for his coming needs. He has the money, and I know from his spending for his surround sound system, etc. he would think nothing of spending a few thousands for a high-class camera and lenses. I simply said, that since he has such a dated, entry-level model, he would not be limited to Nikon in upgrading, and he agreed. He always takes a long time doing a lot of research when he buys new stuff. He might take a year. He will definitely look very thoroughly. I will point out its advantages, but if he chooses the Pentax K-new I will be very surprised.

---------- Post added 10-08-20 at 03:33 PM ----------

by voting with our wallets during the product life of the new camera; by deciding whether-or-not to invest in one. If enough of us do, Ricoh got it right. If not, we'll no doubt see some significant differences (perhaps that flippy screen) in the MkII or next entirely new model

Absolutely, but then that is a long route to take. And just by omitting a useful screen design, how many customers went elsewhere? And I do question the wisdom of built-in vs outboard GPS in terms of how many use this compared to how many use the inboard flash? As I said, I can live without the inboard flash if need be, since Pentax has the nice small WR flash unit which I have, so though inconvenient that is not a deal-breaker.

Maybe as a means for more universal overall satisfaction, an updated KP to similar spec of the K-new would offer an alternative in a different design concept.

---------- Post added 10-08-20 at 03:44 PM ----------

They need more than better equipment.

They need to get the attention of the public,and the need to get equipment into camera and other stores where the public can actually handle it.

Agree- they need both, and their equipment must have wide appeal.

---------- Post added 10-08-20 at 03:46 PM ----------

One thing that is evident is that Pentax does learn. Whether that is from monitoring this forum, doing focus groups or watching the sales figures who knows. But they do react. It just seems as if they don't because the reaction time is measured in years. So if there is a enough demand for a particular feature I suspect that it will show up on newer models, though that might be 3 years from now.

I am very patient, though others may not be. (I am not getting any younger, however!)

[jatrax]

I do not think this has been true, and it would be suicide if going forth along those lines.

This has nothing to do with innovation. Pentax has a very long list. It is about their intent for the company. They are not Sony/Canon/Nikon. They are not trying to 'unseat' one of the big companies or even compete with them. Just survive and make enough cameras to be profitable. People keep thinking of this as a sports season with each team trying to beat the other. Its not. Pentax doesn't care about the other guys or about growing the brand. They can sit quietly on the sidelines and make enough cameras and lenses to be profitable. Or they can spend a gazillion dollars on advertising trying to convince people to buy there stuff. Which unless you have almost unlimited resources is never going to happen. They have a big enough customer base to do quite well.

[cometguy]

I'm confused by why so many people want built-in flash in a DSLR. Built-in flash is just inherently inferior flash, and with the ability to increase ISO so easily in new cameras without that much degradation in image quality down to ISO 1600, anyway, without the annoying (to subjects) having a flash go off in their eyes, I don't understand why people don't just take indoor and low-light photos by default without flash (as I almost always do). On my cameras with built-in flash, I've used it so rarely as to be essentially unnecessary. On my K-3 II, I never miss not having a built-in flash, and indeed I rarely ever use a flash on my iPhone when taking photos. I understand that the general public may not understand that built-in flash is unnecessary, and therein may lie a big problem, but education can be good. You have less-harsh shadows with zero built-in flash also. Yes, it can help in daylight conditions where the subject is in shade with a bright background, but I find ways around that, too.

[SharkyCA]

I'm confused by why so many people want built-in flash in a DSLR. Built-in flash is just inherently inferior flash, and with the ability to increase ISO so easily in new cameras without that much degradation in image quality down to ISO 1600, anyway, without the annoying (to subjects) having a flash go off in their eyes, I don't understand why people don't just take indoor and low-light photos by default without flash (as I almost always do). On my cameras with built-in flash, I've used it so rarely as to be essentially unnecessary. On my K-3 II, I never miss not having a built-in flash, and indeed I rarely ever use a flash on my iPhone when taking photos. I understand that the general public may not understand that built-in flash is unnecessary, and therein may lie a big problem, but education can be good. You have less-harsh shadows with zero built-in flash also. Yes, it can help in daylight conditions where the subject is in shade with a bright background, but I find ways around that, too.

Here is a good article on the Pros & Cons of a built in flash, you may find it interesting how it can sometimes let you take a shot you may not have taken, i.e. "left my flash at home/in the car" https://www.shutterbug.com/content/pop-flash-convenient-“taste-light”

Cheers!

[mikesbike]

Yes, it can help in daylight conditions where the subject is in shade with a bright background

Indeed so- you can expose for the non-shaded background, then use flash to properly balance your shaded subject.

You might try using flash on a regular basis for outdoor daylight shots of people subjects. Especially, small groups or individuals at a closer distance. I do this as a matter of course. The flash can create catchlight in the eyes, and reduce harsh shadows from overhead sunlight. The difference this can make can be quite significant- much more pleasing. The built-in flash can be very handy for this. It may entail some flash comp adjustment for best results, because the flash meter sensing a lot of light might reduce the flash output too much. Otherwise, a flash unit in the hot shoe will do the job, with more power available. As usual, doing it often will give more experience, learning to foresee what is needed.

[jersey]

I'm confused by why so many people want built-in flash in a DSLR. Built-in flash is just inherently inferior flash, and with the ability to increase ISO so easily in new cameras without that much degradation in image quality down to ISO 1600, anyway, without the annoying (to subjects) having a flash go off in their eyes, I don't understand why people don't just take indoor and low-light photos by default without flash (as I almost always do). On my cameras with built-in flash, I've used it so rarely as to be essentially unnecessary. On my K-3 II, I never miss not having a built-in flash, and indeed I rarely ever use a flash on my iPhone when taking photos. I understand that the general public may not understand that built-in flash is unnecessary, and therein may lie a big problem, but education can be good. You have less-harsh shadows with zero built-in flash also. Yes, it can help in daylight conditions where the subject is in shade with a bright background, but I find ways around that, too.

It is pretty usefull, but depends on what you shoot. I quite often use it to highlight details that are in shadows in museum or black and oily parts of train undercariage hidden in shadows. Also often when shooting some dark (brown/black) elements of trees, flowers etc when they would appear black on ligh background. Sometimes flash makes things look more smooth even if used in good light conditions - and it is desirable effect. Lots of uses on onboard flash. It does not need to be very good for such uses, just good enough. Sure, one can PP image or compose it differently - but if you have a tool on camera, why not use it?

[BigMackCam]

Absolutely, but then that is a long route to take. And just by omitting a useful screen design, how many customers went elsewhere? And I do question the wisdom of built-in vs outboard GPS in terms of how many use this compared to how many use the inboard flash? As I said, I can live without the inboard flash if need be, since Pentax has the nice small WR flash unit which I have, so though inconvenient that is not a deal-breaker.

Everything's a long game with Ricoh, regardless.

Bottom line - Ricoh knew exactly what it was doing, and why, when it designed the new camera to include or exclude certain capabilities and features, and I'm quite certain it carefully considered what each design decision might mean to existing and prospective customers. What we're getting is Ricoh's vision of the best and most saleable balance of specifications, features, build quality and price for its intended market. We can disagree with that vision all we like, pick fault and give our individual and varied "armchair expert" opinions, but while we play "Fantasy CEO" at no personal financial risk, Ricoh's putting its yen and corporate neck on the line with something it clearly believes will sell, and profitably so. We'll simply have to wait and see how that pans out. Me? I'm cautiously optimistic

[Pål Jensen]

I do not think this has been true, and it would be suicide if going forth along those lines. It is not true based on real history. Pentax has been the innovator, bringing useful features into existence.

But in spite of this you claim that the Knew is just an updated K-3 without having any idea about the cameras features....