[Rondec]

I think beginners shoot with what is cheapest and what their friends who own cameras recommend. Pentax probably doesn't fit the bill in either category.

Most of my friends who have purchased an ILC have ended up with an entry level Canon SLR with two lens package.

[normhead]

I think beginners shoot with what is cheapest and what their friends who own cameras recommend. Pentax probably doesn't fit the bill in either category.

Most of my friends who have purchased an ILC have ended up with an entry level Canon SLR with two lens package.

If they are like my cheap Nikon shooting friends, they keep asking me how to do things I do, that their cameras don't. Even simple things like 1 click bracketing.

[Lev]

I think beginners shoot with what is cheapest and what their friends who own cameras recommend. Pentax probably doesn't fit the bill in either category.

Most of my friends who have purchased an ILC have ended up with an entry level Canon SLR with two lens package.

I went to B&H and filtered search results by setting price range to $0 - $1000. Pretending entry level hobbist looking for something to start with. Here we go:

Canon EOS Rebel T7 DSLR Camera with 18-55mm and 75-300mm Lenses Accessory Kit
$549.00

Sony Alpha a6000 Mirrorless Digital Camera with 16-50mm Lens and Accessory Kit (Black)
$648.00

Canon EOS Rebel T7 DSLR Camera with 18-55mm Lens and Accessory Ki
$449.00

Nikon D3500 DSLR Camera with 18-55mm and 70-300mm Lenses
$596.95

and the list goes until Ricoh Theta for $999 on third page.

What this means is that someone who is new doesn't even have Pentax shown as an option. Is $1,000 not enough or this is also outcome of poor marketing?

[normhead]

I went to B&H and filtered search results by setting price range to $0 - $1000. Pretending entry level hobbist looking for something to start with. Here we go:

Canon EOS Rebel T7 DSLR Camera with 18-55mm and 75-300mm Lenses Accessory Kit
$549.00

Sony Alpha a6000 Mirrorless Digital Camera with 16-50mm Lens and Accessory Kit (Black)
$648.00

Canon EOS Rebel T7 DSLR Camera with 18-55mm Lens and Accessory Ki
$449.00

Nikon D3500 DSLR Camera with 18-55mm and 70-300mm Lenses
$596.95

and the list goes until Ricoh Theta for $999 on third page.

What this means is that someone who is new doesn't even have Pentax shown as an option. Is $1,000 not enough or this is also outcome of poor marketing?

The ultimate goal of those who create the status quo, is to maintain the status quo.

[lesmore49]

I'm another one of those long time photographers who has owned/used 'good' cameras for many a year. In my case since '68. In my case when I first started I did not know the first thing about 35 mm, medium format cameras. But I was required to get a 35mm SLR because of my job.

Since that initial purpose, I have become enamored of photography, actually composing, thinking about what I'm composing, experimenting with what I'm composing and etc.

I am also somewhat of a gearhead or camera head or whatever describes a long term fascination with photographic equipment.

My wife points out to me, that I obsess over my photos, analyzing what I did 'wrong', what I did 'ok', how I can improve, checking each photo out for sharpness and other qualities I value in a pic.

She says most people don't do these things. They just want a picture of some event...birthday, Christmas, wedding...that kind of thing. A 110 in the past, a point and shoot in the past and a cell phone camera now, is all most people need or want.

She's right.

But, I like the way I am about photography. And don't have any intentions to change my over 50 years of doing things, the way I do them, photographically speaking.

I do have a cell phone, but just use it to text and make calls. It is about 12 years old, has a camera, but not a good one. Camera tech in cells was not as good 12 years ago. My wife has a good cell, an I Phone I think. Does everything well, including videos.

So she is the videographer , I'm the stills photographer as the movie credits say.

[Jonathan Mac]

I find small mirrorless bodies somewhat appealing (but not appealing enough to spend all the money to switch or add a system) because I could get something like a Fuji with a pancake lens and it would be considerably smaller and lighter than a Pentax DSLR plus lens, even a pancake lens.

But how many people do that? My K-3ii and 40mm LTD weigh 890g. A Fuji X-T3 and a 16-80mm lens weighs 979g (that's the top combo for Fuji listed on B&H). The Fuji is longer from front of lens to back of camera.

Sure, the body itself is smaller and weighs 261 grams less. But to get a real advantage you'd have to use something like the 27mm pancake that actually weighs less than a 40LTD, giving you a total package 2/3rds the weight of the K-3ii combo, and a bit less size.

So if pocketability is the key then even the mirrorless is probably too big, so go with a GRIII. But then try to make the case that the GRIII has a lot of advantages over the newer phones and it's a more difficult sell. Especially since almost everyone already has a phone. The niche between K-3ii and phone isn't big enough for a $900 solution for me.

I think this is an interesting point related to the OP's message. How many of us recommend Pentax to friends/family that ask about getting into photography and want a camera? I always tell people I love shooting with my KP - but I'm sometimes hesitant to recommend Pentax to someone I don't think will spend time customizing their gear, working on images in post processing, etc. How do the rest of you feel about this?

The fairest comparison would be with like lenses, such as the Fujinon 35mm f/2 and the Pentax HD FA 35mm f/2. The former has a fine reputation but I've never tried it, I have the f/1.4 version which is superb. The latter I've had for a year or so and it has quickly become one of my favourites. I don't have time to check sizes and weights but I am sure the Fujifilm will be smaller and lighter, not to mention weather resistant and sharper. The HD FA is very sharp from f/2.5 but Fujinon lenses in general, and the 35/2 in particular, are known for being very sharp even wide open.

Don't confuse pocketability with size. Pocketability is binary - either it fits or it doesn't - whereas size (and weight) are continuously variable. Most people looking for a "good camera" don't think about pocketability, they think about size and weight.

Generally, Pentax DSLRs do quite well in size comparisons against mirrorless cameras. There's a little bit of extra weight, but you also get a decent grip. If the mirrorless camera's EVF is in the DSLR position, there is often not much of a size advantage for the MILC, or the balance could even tip in favour of the Pentax - Fujiifilm in particular has produced some rather oversized MILCs.

To me, all of that is part of the conversation before I'd even get started on mirrorless vs. optical.

I have big hands and bigger cameras are more comfortable for me to use - I like the K-3 and grip, it feels perfect. However, I never take the grip when I travel because the size and weight is too much if I have to carry it around. To add to that, I now have two small children and when travel becomes possible again I'll be limited more by size and weight because I used to have to carry just my stuff, in the future I'll have to manage kid's stuff too, and/or fit it in the suitcase and car.

My point is that size is a two-edged sword and in some cases what you want may not be what you can use or may not be the best option in all situations.

I just held the Fuji XT-3 yesterday for the first time at Best Buy, I couldn't believe how small it was. I would not be able to shoot with that at all.

You'd be surprised what you can learn to shoot with, and even shoot comfortably with. I can't think of anything less ergonomic than a modern smartphone...

[outdoorsman]

I was going to sell my K5iis when I acquired the K1 however, my girlfriend loves coming with me, so she uses the K5 and loves using it. Even when I grab it, it feels so familiar and easy to learn.

[normhead]

I was going to sell my K5iis when I acquired the K1 however, my girlfriend loves coming with me, so she uses the K5 and loves using it. Even when I grab it, it feels so familiar and easy to learn.

My Tess, who stole my K-5 years ago has arranged to purchase a K-5ii. I may finally get mine back.
Your girlfriend and my wife loving their K-5s. It makes you wonder how much more it would have sold if it came in nice fashionable colours.

[bdery]

Long time ago when I was choosing between brands, I made my choice mainly because of nice community, then body itself was if not better, at least at the same level to other brands for much lower price, visual appearance and ergonomics, all these stuff helped me to pull trigger. So what would be an inspiration for new users choose Pentax in these days?

All those reasons are still valid.

Ergonomics are still world-class with Pentax.

Prices are very good once you factor in the lenses.

For stills, the camera are quite well adapted, at least on par with anyone else.

For video/sports, they work well enough but are far from leading the pack.

[Hayashi]

simple answer to the question, no

The beginner market is almost eaten up by smartphone, for those who wanna enter a higher level of photography, mirrorless is the first choice.

Ricoh probably noticed that, therefore they cut K-70 line

[Alex645]

I think beginners shoot with what is cheapest and what their friends who own cameras recommend. Pentax probably doesn't fit the bill in either category.

Most of my friends who have purchased an ILC have ended up with an entry level Canon SLR with two lens package.

Totally agree here and often the cheapest is a hand-me-down Canon or Nikon.

For my son a few years back, I got the Pentax K50 when it was bundled with a two lens package and was priced as low as the entry level Canon and Nikon DSLRs.

[Breakfastographer]

The KP is quite a bit fatter, though. Not that it matters a whole lot when mounting a lens.

XT-3 to KP comparison with lenses mounted

I've written rather a lot about how that works out. The main thickness of the KP is in the mirrorbox, but that covers the grip as well if you're looking from the LHS. With a camera like the X-T3, the grip sticks out extra, so depending how you pack it, you've gained exactly nothing in terms of compactness.

There's an added problem if you try to make the lens more compact, because due to the shorter back focal flange, the lens may invade the space that was supposed to be for the fingers. This is only one of two major reasons why very few MILC lenses so far have actually been able to deliver the promise of smaller overall size, body and lens combined.

In the worst case, you might end up carrying more with a mirrorless system because there is added weight in the lens (just the actual flange, so maybe of the order of 30 grams per lens), and when you pack a bag for a trip, you'll often take more lenses than bodies.

[normhead]

simple answer to the question, no

The beginner market is almost eaten up by smartphone, for those who wanna enter a higher level of photography, mirrorless is the first choice.

Ricoh probably noticed that, therefore they cut K-70 line

The K-70 sold out.... there have been great prices on them lately as they continue to do the "declining market" thing and trim their product line, keeping 2 APS-c model lines alive. The K-3iii is about to be released bringing them back up to 2 APS-c offerings., how does that fit your "Everyone is going mirrorless" theory? Just who do you think they'll sell these K-Ps and K-3iii s to? The K-P like the K-1 attracted about half their sales from "new to Pentax" buyers.

Mirrorless proponents and anti-Pentax sceptics hate that fact. They can't explain it.

The hypothesis that a good OVF camera can't sell to beginners because of mirrorless is about as half cocked as it gets.

The K-70 is gone because Pentax has dropped the low end of their product line, that is the one most affected by smart phones. "premium product, not market share." With the bottom end of the product line now gone, they had a very capable camera in a K-P that can meet almost any photographers needs, and the coming K-3ii is opening up a market in action photography that Pentax has never seriously addressed before. Mirrorless has little to do with the current situation. Survival in a shrinking market is what it's all about.

[heinamj]

I might need a bit more skill to get my image, but I'm fine with that. Having to be a better photographer to produce a better image for a lower price has always been part of my ethic. I'm not sure that's at all relevant to beginners.

That pretty much captures my perspective ... I may not have as many keepers due to AF or using MF, but it is so satisfying to get a good or even great image you had a work for... and so enjoyable to use a ergonomically designed instrument like a K3 or K70 to do it.

[Cerebum]

The K-70 sold out.... there have been great prices on them lately as they continue to do the "declining market" thing and trim their product line, keeping 2 APS-c model lines alive. The K-3iii is about to be released bringing them back up to 2 APS-c offerings., how does that fit your "Everyone is going mirrorless" theory? Just who do you think they'll sell these K-Ps and K-3iii s to? The K-P like the K-1 attracted about half their sales from "new to Pentax" buyers.

Mirrorless proponents and anti-Pentax sceptics hate that fact. They can't explain it.

The hypothesis that a good OVF camera can't sell to beginners because of mirrorless is about as half cocked as it gets.

The K-70 is gone because Pentax has dropped the low end of their product line, that is the one most affected by smart phones. "premium product, not market share." With the bottom end of the product line now gone, they had a very capable camera in a K-P that can meet almost any photographers needs, and the coming K-3ii is opening up a market in action photography that Pentax has never seriously addressed before. Mirrorless has little to do with the current situation. Survival in a shrinking market is what it's all about.

There have been a few non fan boy articles lately about how some people genuinely don't get on with evf, making the Pentax direction understandable. I am not surprised they dropped the K70 because it was always quite a bit dearer than entry level, it was worth it but it was dearer. Re not addressing the action market, I read somewhere (again) that the K30 was aggressively styled to appeal to action sports enthusiasts but they soon realised it created issues like not being able to mount 3rd party lenses, so we got the K50 after just 12 months