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01-12-2021, 03:08 AM - 3 Likes   #1
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Pentax K1 dSLR vs Panasonic S1 mirrorless (Pixel Shift)

Brothers I bought the Panasonic Lumix S1 for its video capabilities, which are excellent.


It also has pixel shift and claims extensive weather sealing.

So here's a quick comparison with the Pentax K1...


p.s. There's a link on YouTube to the RAW files so you can compare them for yourself, including a couple with the Pentax 77mm limited lens.

01-12-2021, 03:34 AM - 6 Likes   #2
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You were doing great for the first 47 seconds... and then:

0:48 - "Now, mirrorless cameras are the future, there's no doubt about that."

I'll go get some popcorn...

[Full disclosure: I shoot both DSLR and mirrorless, I like both, but I think they're quite different - with their own pro's and con's depending on what and how you shoot, and personal preferences ]

---

EDIT: I forgot to say, congratulations on your new S1... a fine camera, regardless of individual preferences. As a hybrid stills and video tool, it's a compelling choice

Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-12-2021 at 07:27 AM.
01-12-2021, 04:41 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by English-Photographer Quote
It also has pixel shift and claims extensive weather sealing.
For pixel shift, the S1 isn't a good choice because of the optical low pass filter overlaid on the 24Mpixels sensor. There is no much details added from the S1 pixel shift, details are blocked by the optical low pass filter. For pixels shift, the S1R that has no OLPF is more effective at getting the extra details out of the lens.

The comparison has lot of incorrect statements in it. One of them is camera settings for pixels shift. At f10 , there is already diffraction, can't really appreciate the potential of pixel shift at f10 beside noise reduction.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-12-2021 at 04:53 AM.
01-12-2021, 05:12 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
You were doing great for the first 47 seconds... and then:

0:48 - "Now, mirrorless cameras are the future, there's no doubt about that."

I'll go get some popcorn...

[Full disclosure: I shoot both DSLR and mirrorless, I like both, but I think they're quite different - with their own pro's and con's depending on what and how you shoot, and personal preferences ]


bingo - that statement is such a subjective opinion.....

and I shoot both DSLR and MILC cameras, daily......

01-12-2021, 05:50 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by English-Photographer Quote
So here's a quick comparison with the Pentax K1...
insta sub

---------- Post added 01-12-2021 at 02:52 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
the S1 isn't a good choice because of the optical low pass filter overlaid on the 24Mpixels sensor.
For a long time I thought that's true too but it turns out that: "The S1 uses what Panasonic claims is a newly designed full-frame 24.2 Megapixel sensor. In order to maximize resolution, there's no optical low-pass filter, though it does have an anti-reflective coating to reduce ghosting and flare." - DPR.

It's quite possible, given that the 24MP leica's also don't have the filter.
01-12-2021, 07:04 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by sundown Quote
For a long time I thought that's true too but it turns out that: "The S1 uses what Panasonic claims is a newly designed full-frame 24.2 Megapixel sensor. In order to maximize resolution, there's no optical low-pass filter, though it does have an anti-reflective coating to reduce ghosting and flare." - DPR.
To be honest I don't know. A while ago, I downloaded raw images from the DPR studo comparison tool.
In order to compare camera side by side, I demosaiced RAW files to 144Mpixel ( 2 x pixels in X axis and 2 x pixels in Y axis, of K1 native pixel count).
Using the exact same RAW export processing, I compared K1 pixel shift 144Mp JPEG export to 144Mp JPEG exports from Nikon Z7, Sony A7RIV, PanaS1, Pentax 645Z, GFX50S, and GFX100.
I did a blind test , side by side, without knowing which camera was used. The only file export that stand out from the others was from the GFX100. I examined a second time, third time, I could eventually tell the A7RIV apart it was really hard to do. I couldn't tell the difference between K1 PS, Z7 , 645z and GFX50, and I could tell which one was the S1 because the image was softer. Then I was intrigued by the S1 pixel not being as detailed as others, and I just concluded for myself that "the softness must be due to the low pass filter". So maybe it's something else.

P.S. below the youtube video, there is a link with the images files from both K1 and S1. We can compare two crops: K1_6766crop.jpg and P1012225crop.jpg. This shows pretty much what I've found in my comparison, K1 wins on stills.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-12-2021 at 07:14 AM.
01-12-2021, 09:03 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
For pixel shift, the S1 isn't a good choice because of the optical low pass filter overlaid on the 24Mpixels sensor. There is no much details added from the S1 pixel shift, details are blocked by the optical low pass filter. For pixels shift, the S1R that has no OLPF is more effective at getting the extra details out of the lens.

The comparison has lot of incorrect statements in it. One of them is camera settings for pixels shift. At f10 , there is already diffraction, can't really appreciate the potential of pixel shift at f10 beside noise reduction.
Thanks, actually the S1 and S1R apparently don't have anti-aliasing filters, although the S1H does. I've tested both lenses, f10 is fine and pixel shift makes a noticeable difference with acuity. But I've also included a few RAW files taken with the 77mm where image quality based on MTF curves was my 'prime' concern.

---------- Post added 01-12-21 at 09:04 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
To be honest I don't know. A while ago, I downloaded raw images from the DPR studo comparison tool.
In order to compare camera side by side, I demosaiced RAW files to 144Mpixel ( 2 x pixels in X axis and 2 x pixels in Y axis, of K1 native pixel count).
Using the exact same RAW export processing, I compared K1 pixel shift 144Mp JPEG export to 144Mp JPEG exports from Nikon Z7, Sony A7RIV, PanaS1, Pentax 645Z, GFX50S, and GFX100.
I did a blind test , side by side, without knowing which camera was used. The only file export that stand out from the others was from the GFX100. I examined a second time, third time, I could eventually tell the A7RIV apart it was really hard to do. I couldn't tell the difference between K1 PS, Z7 , 645z and GFX50, and I could tell which one was the S1 because the image was softer. Then I was intrigued by the S1 pixel not being as detailed as others, and I just concluded for myself that "the softness must be due to the low pass filter". So maybe it's something else.

P.S. below the youtube video, there is a link with the images files from both K1 and S1. We can compare two crops: K1_6766crop.jpg and P1012225crop.jpg. This shows pretty much what I've found in my comparison, K1 wins on stills.
Excellent experiment. Yes, the Pentax K1 is still hugely undervalued. The image quality, especially with pixel shift and a great lens, is amazing.

---------- Post added 01-12-21 at 09:12 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
You were doing great for the first 47 seconds... and then:

0:48 - "Now, mirrorless cameras are the future, there's no doubt about that."

I'll go get some popcorn...

[Full disclosure: I shoot both DSLR and mirrorless, I like both, but I think they're quite different - with their own pro's and con's depending on what and how you shoot, and personal preferences ]

---

EDIT: I forgot to say, congratulations on your new S1... a fine camera, regardless of individual preferences. As a hybrid stills and video tool, it's a compelling choice

Thanks, loving it so far! Very customisable so lots to explore with it. The grip on the K1 is much better but the S1 has some lovely features made possible by software changes & mirrorless features. And yes, quite fun to prompt a bit of a debate.


Unlikely to be as controversial as triumphing Sigma over the Pentax Limited
.


My eye prefers an optical finder but the S1's viewfinder is high resolution and useful. And mirrorless cameras feel more electronically fragile and disposable, although that could be the nostalgic Luddite in me talking...
01-12-2021, 09:36 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by English-Photographer Quote
nlikely to be as controversial as triumphing Sigma over the Pentax Limited
Not really that controversial. Opinions on this site (official review included) have long been that the Sigma 35mm is an exceptional lens, even if a little bit on the heavy/bulky side. I might consider the purchase if I did not already own the FA 35/2.0 and XR Rikenon 35/2.8 (v2).


Steve

01-12-2021, 10:01 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by English-Photographer Quote
Excellent experiment. Yes, the Pentax K1 is still hugely undervalued. The image quality, especially with pixel shift and a great lens, is amazing.
f10 is not a problem. It's just that I immediately see more details from pixel shift at f5.6 compared to a single electronic shutter exposure (no shutter and mirror vibration), at f10 I see no difference between ES and pixel shift on the K1. Diffraction isn't something that kicks in all of a sudden at a specific aperture, there is diffraction even at f2, it's just that the amount of diffraction at f2 is 10 times less than at f20. At f5, the contrast between two adjacent pixels in already > 70% of the max, and at f10 the remaining contrast is around <30% of the max pixel to pixel contrast. I've seen people use pixel shift at f16, completely useless IMO.

---------- Post added 12-01-21 at 18:04 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by English-Photographer Quote
Thanks, actually the S1 and S1R apparently don't have anti-aliasing filters, although the S1H does.
According to Panasonic, the S1 PS file should be like 100Mpixels or something like that. So if the S1 doesn't have an OLPF and does 16 frames pixel shift, I still can't understand why the S1 pixel shift is softer than a K1 PS ?

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-12-2021 at 10:14 AM.
01-12-2021, 10:14 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
at f10 I see no difference between ES and pixel shift on the K1.
Diffraction?


Steve
01-12-2021, 12:37 PM - 1 Like   #11
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Thanks for the video. Quite obvious things. As you said your self, Panasonic S1 has better video. No big surprise there, also you said that K-1 has batter image quality. To my eye it was almost as big difference with Panasonic video quality vs Pentax to Pentax image quality vs Panasonic. Quite eyeopening actually, so thank you for that.

I’d say even based on that, if you like doing video more than photographing, choose Panasonic and if you like more photographing, choose Pentax. It is interesting times with new models coming up every now and then. Have fun with your new gear!
01-12-2021, 11:11 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Diffraction?
There is some diffraction at f10 but not enough to be noticeable on a single exposure, however, when doubling color sampling (pixel shift), the commonly considered "diffraction free" apertures should have halved.

---------- Post added 13-01-21 at 07:17 ----------

Other thing about video: the video mention that Pentax K1 skip frames in video recording. Yes, I now record video with my K1 quite regularly, and I can tell that when K1 skip frames, if I chose the wrong exposure settings in relation to selected frame rate. If I program correct "exposure" setting for video recording, I never get any frame skipped, using the original K1. Skip frames comes from user error.
01-13-2021, 10:09 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
There is some diffraction at f10 but not enough to be noticeable on a single exposure, however, when doubling color sampling (pixel shift), the commonly considered "diffraction free" apertures should have halved.

---------- Post added 13-01-21 at 07:17 ----------

Other thing about video: the video mention that Pentax K1 skip frames in video recording. Yes, I now record video with my K1 quite regularly, and I can tell that when K1 skip frames, if I chose the wrong exposure settings in relation to selected frame rate. If I program correct "exposure" setting for video recording, I never get any frame skipped, using the original K1. Skip frames comes from user error.
This was at 1/60s at 1080 30p for the 180 degree rule. But even at other shutter speeds dropping frames isn't user error. The K1 just doesn't have great video.
01-13-2021, 11:16 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by English-Photographer Quote
The K1 just doesn't have great video.
I agree. Unlike for cameras with video, camcoders haven't been sold yet for their still photography mode as a unique selling proposition. Otherwise we would have lots of camcoder users saying that a camcoder model isn't great at taking photographs.
I'll have a laugh if camcoders would compete with cameras on the camera features. So camera owners would buy a camera for recording videos, and camcoder owners would by a camcoder to take pictures. I think that would be a lot of fun.
01-13-2021, 07:02 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I agree. Unlike for cameras with video, camcoders haven't been sold yet for their still photography mode as a unique selling proposition. Otherwise we would have lots of camcoder users saying that a camcoder model isn't great at taking photographs.
I'll have a laugh if camcoders would compete with cameras on the camera features. So camera owners would buy a camera for recording videos, and camcoder owners would by a camcoder to take pictures. I think that would be a lot of fun.
Ha Ha Ha! Makes about as much sense! I've always seen the video feature on what are basically still-frame cameras as being creatively for including short film clips as part of shooting a series of still frames of still scene subject matter which at certain points include some action, or shooting still scenes of events with video clips mixed in. Otherwise, I'd rather just shoot videos with a dedicated video camcorder.
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