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04-29-2021, 05:57 AM - 2 Likes   #31
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I find it kind of amusing that people say "but the detail at ISO 6400".


If you put yourself in a situation where ISO 6400 is needed, you already show you don't care about minimal loss of detail... Buy some floodlights!

---------- Post added 04-29-21 at 06:01 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by iheiramo Quote
OMG!!! Again?

On which decade that other site lives on? Yes, you might see some loss of hair detail if pixel peeped at 200% on K1ii. Terrible baking. IRL it makes results better than without it.
One of the comparisons said that there was detail loss on the K-3iii image compared to the Fuji (using different lenses), while the Pentax had slightly *better* detail on parts of the image and slightly worse on others. Almost as if the lens used and other parts of the processing play a part

This accelerator basically just saves time and any complaint is academical at best.


Last edited by Serkevan; 04-29-2021 at 06:02 AM.
04-29-2021, 06:38 AM - 2 Likes   #32
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here is another comparison:
Shadow Improvement of Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting
04-29-2021, 06:56 AM - 2 Likes   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
They want to measure with the numbers what is stated not measurable with numbers.
They measure in numbers what they can measure in numbers, but it isn't the whole story
04-29-2021, 07:20 AM - 4 Likes   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnX Quote
It's worth reading the post on the other forum, as there's a concern expressed in it that the NR performance comes at the expense of detail, and that it's 'baked in' and cannot be switched off.
There are a number of people, even here on Pentax Forums, who are philosophically opposed to anything but a direct, unaltered dump from the A/D converters. You can't really win that argument except by taking excellent photos



04-29-2021, 07:32 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
There are a number of people, even here on Pentax Forums, who are philosophically opposed to anything but a direct, unaltered dump from the A/D converters. You can't really win that argument except by taking excellent photos
Mike drop.
04-29-2021, 07:47 AM   #36
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Here's the link to Bill Claff's thread at DPR: Pentax K-3 III Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

A few of Bill's comments:

QuoteQuote:
Except between ISO 100 and ISO 160 there is very strong Noise Reduction (NR) baked into the raw data even with NR set to off.These results are not comparable to any other cameras.
Note that the NR is so strong that the camera measures well above what a perfect sensor could accomplish.

QuoteQuote:
I don't measure detail but mathematically it's not possible to do NR without smearing the data somewhat. That said, the effect might be limited to the deep shadows.

QuoteQuote:
I do know that according to my 2D Fourier Transforms, Energy Spectra, and read noise measurements; that Pentax applies way more signal processing than any other brand

Bill's also doing a deeper dive into how significantly the NR impacts detail loss.
04-29-2021, 07:47 AM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
You can't really win that argument except by taking excellent photos
How optimistic we woke up today...

04-29-2021, 07:49 AM - 1 Like   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I find it kind of amusing that people say "but the detail at ISO 6400".


If you put yourself in a situation where ISO 6400 is needed, you already show you don't care about minimal loss of detail... Buy some floodlights!
How am I supposed to use floodlights when I'm pursuing wildlife on a cloudy evening?
04-29-2021, 07:55 AM - 1 Like   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
There are a lot of questions, and Bill Claff didn't really managed to answer them. For example, assuming the processing detected on uniform areas is a simple form of NR, non content aware, which will result in a significant loss of detail (no attempt to validate any of the assumptions are made).

Unfortunately, photonstophotos proves most useful to people always looking to bash Pentax (on the other site there are some new names "interested" in the K-3iii but always having bad things to say about it), and not at all or very little to Pentaxians.
The unskilled babble about NR is only the tip of the iceberg.

If someone wants to simulate a wanna-be-scientific approach like he does, the first question is: On what scientific basis is SNR data ignored when it is below/above a deliberately chosen value by Mr. Nobody?
The only difference between Dxomarks approach to DR and that guy's approach is that his QDR (questionable dynamic range; wrongly nicknamed PDR) throws away certain bits of information because his opinion is this way.
04-29-2021, 08:01 AM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
Bill Claff shared his analysis of K-3 III's sensor on "the other forum".
One needs to be wary that photonstophotos website is a hobby project of one single amateur internet guy - like you and anyone else - and shady with regards to robustness as well very questionable with regards to interpreting what is being presented.

Dxomark still seems much better and "better" is coming from pretty low standards.

You are better off looking at actual image files yourself. Joe the plumber internet user creating graphics based on his very opinion is not going to help anyone.

---------- Post added 29th Apr 2021 at 17:07 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Bill's also doing ...
Oh, boy. Some untrustworthy nobody on the internet has an opinion on topics he doesn't really understand.

Funny how a guy with a flute can lead the gullible anywhere.
04-29-2021, 08:34 AM   #41
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Looks fine to me

Just a comparison with the KP and the X-Pro3, overall seems to be some very similar processing going on.
Attached Images
 
04-29-2021, 08:45 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
How am I supposed to use floodlights when I'm pursuing wildlife on a cloudy evening?
Obviously that was in jest. The point is that at high ISO you won't have anywhere near the full detail the sensor can get, and the people claiming that Pentax can't cheat physics sometimes ignore that that goes both ways... you can't conjure detail out of nowhere, and any difference between the camera's processing and whatever painstaking care one takes on the computer seems minute, going by everything I've seen so far.
04-29-2021, 09:15 AM - 2 Likes   #43
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Just FWIW, Pentax engineers are not fresh out of school. They absolutely understand RAW image processing involves tradeoffs and mitigations. Perhaps reading what they had to say about the K3 III's new accelerator and imaging engine will put this into perspective.

The creation of an image The unending pursuit of PENTAX?s imaging goals | Challengers | PENTAX K-3 Mark III | RICOH IMAGING
04-29-2021, 09:20 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'd wish Bill Claff would remove his claim of being "trusted source"; that isn't up to him to decide.


Don't get me started!

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
One needs to be wary that photonstophotos website is a hobby project of one single amateur internet guy - like you and anyone else - and shady with regards to robustness as well very questionable with regards to interpreting what is being presented.
I wish I had said that...


Steve

(...feels the same about DXO, but for different reasons...)
04-29-2021, 09:59 AM - 1 Like   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Just FWIW, Pentax engineers are not fresh out of school. They absolutely understand RAW image processing involves tradeoffs and mitigations. Perhaps reading what they had to say about the K3 III's new accelerator and imaging engine will put this into perspective.

The creation of an image The unending pursuit of PENTAX?s imaging goals | Challengers | PENTAX K-3 Mark III | RICOH IMAGING
Pentax engineers are not fresh out of school -- correct! Can't wait for the other forum to, oh, so knowingly, bash the baking.
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