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04-29-2021, 10:10 AM - 1 Like   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marktax Quote
Pentax engineers are not fresh out of school -- correct! Can't wait for the other forum to, oh, so knowingly, bash the baking.
They were relatively mild when commenting on the same "baked noise reduction" from the Canon R5 and R6. Both of those got DPR's Gold rating despite any reservation the reviewer might have had on the image processing. I would expect equal treatment from them when reviewing the K3 III.

04-29-2021, 10:21 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by 3by2 Quote
Can someone tell me how their can be a jump in dynamic range 'after' 200ish ISO. Presumably this is some jiggery pokery in an onboard processor chip?
It's the Pentax Magic!
04-29-2021, 10:32 AM - 2 Likes   #48
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Ricoh are very smart guys. They've probably noticed that 99% of users don't print or don't print larger than 16". So having images tweaked in camera to look better turns out to be a benefit for most users. Pixel peepers complains without printing is unfounded complain; what's the point of zooming at 100% if all you'll do with images is to post then at max at HD size on social media sites? Ricoh knows about formats and their application. Apsc was never made to prints XXL posters anyway; for XXL posters there is full frame K1 and medium format. Another good reason in favor or having raw files processed in camera for better looking images.
04-29-2021, 11:26 AM - 3 Likes   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
One needs to be wary that photonstophotos website is a hobby project of one single amateur internet guy - like you and anyone else - and shady with regards to robustness as well very questionable with regards to interpreting what is being presented.

Dxomark still seems much better and "better" is coming from pretty low standards.
Lenstip also tests cameras (although their camera tests are not available in English for some reason). They drew similar conclusions to Bill when they tested KP, K-1 II and K-70.

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Ricoh are very smart guys. They've probably noticed that 99% of users don't print or don't print larger than 16". So having images tweaked in camera to look better turns out to be a benefit for most users. Pixel peepers complains without printing is unfounded complain; what's the point of zooming at 100% if all you'll do with images is to post then at max at HD size on social media sites? Ricoh knows about formats and their application. Apsc was never made to prints XXL posters anyway; for XXL posters there is full frame K1 and medium format. Another good reason in favor or having raw files processed in camera for better looking images.
2000$ camera just for HD resolution jpegs on social media sites?


Also where does K-1 II with its accelerator unit fit into this theory?

04-29-2021, 11:44 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
Lenstip also tests cameras (although their camera tests are not available in English for some reason). They drew similar conclusions to Bill when they tested KP, K-1 II and K-70.



2000$ camera just for HD resolution jpegs on social media sites?


Also where does K-1 II with its accelerator unit fit into this theory?
Lenstip are great, come to think of it does it seem odd that there have been no reviews from major sites in the K3-III? I thought they usually came in sooner than this.
04-29-2021, 12:04 PM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
Lenstip also tests cameras (although their camera tests are not available in English for some reason). They drew similar conclusions to Bill when they tested KP, K-1 II and K-70.
2000$ camera just for HD resolution jpegs on social media sites?
Also where does K-1 II with its accelerator unit fit into this theory?
The day someone shows me a printed image of the K-1ii that can be told from a printed image of the K-1 is the day I might start getting just a touch worried.
04-29-2021, 12:22 PM - 1 Like   #52
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There is still much confusion on this issue. The K-3 III curve showing better dynamic range ignores the triangles and what they mean. It also ignores that the K-3 III is better than the mathematically "ideal" apsc sensor. better dr at iso 400 than iso 100 consider that one. Noise reduction improves measured dr. The comparisons to the Xpro3 is most educational. The two curves follow each other shifted by the base iso and the Pentax is lifted and smoothed by the accelerator.

Pentax has a strong focus on enjoyment and sooc photography. Some users, who don't want to fiddle around to much in their raw converter will benefit from this behaviour. One intersting aspect is the colour fixing that goes on at extreme iso's. I've seen experiements with automatically substracting (sort of blackpoint substraction) away colour biases created by high iso. It looks like pentax is doing something like that in addition to the noise reduction. This colour fixing seems more useful than the nr.

This comparison with the xpro3, r5 and k-3 is interesting.
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%20R5,FujiFilm%20X...ax%20K-3%20III

04-29-2021, 12:29 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
One needs to be wary that photonstophotos website is a hobby project of one single amateur internet guy - like you and anyone else - and shady with regards to robustness as well very questionable with regards to interpreting what is being presented.Dxomark still seems much better and "better" is coming from pretty low standards.
I disagree with the conclusion. The process on Photons to Photos is absolutely transparent and repeatable, errors, sample variation impact discussed and published. The PDR definition makes some assumptions, which make comparisons only applicable across similar sensors, definitely not extending to processed signals. And that's what's expressed in what luftfluss quoted from Bill: "Except between ISO 100 and ISO 160 there is very strong Noise Reduction (NR) baked into the raw data even with NR set to off.These results are not comparable to any other cameras." - PDR is not a universal measure of image quality, not even for the single aspect of dynamic range.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Unfortunately, photonstophotos proves most useful to people always looking to bash Pentax (on the other site there are some new names "interested" in the K-3iii but always having bad things to say about it), and not at all or very little to Pentaxians.
Definitely not true for me, and things I have shared with others - you can definitely learn something about cameras and what settings to use for things that you cannot immediately judge visually - e.g. at what ISO to shoot astro shots, depending on how you intend to process them. Or explain how those 'empty' low ISO settings of other cameras may help to achieve low shutter speeds, but otherwise don't necessarily improve image quality.


Also the K3 III curve seems to indicate something interesting: Comparing the K3 III PDR with the Nikon D500 and Sony alpha 6400, I suspect there could be a similar underlying dual-gain design, boosting the ISO400 PDR higher than ISO100 by the combined effect of the extra gain stage and accelerator image processing. Of course, a switch in parameters/algorithms could have the same effect, but shots at ISO400 may come out marginally better than ISO320 ...


I really like working with the 'cooked' raw files from my KP, less work in most cases than having to optimize noise post-processing myself and likely better optimized than I would achieve in the time I'm willing to spend on it. I can only see very niche cases where K-1 style, largely unprocessed raw files would provide an advantage - such as specific model-based astro processing. But in that case, other specialized cameras are available by now at reasonable prices, more suited to the job. For my use, they're mainly providing me a way to balance tones and colours without penalties, some level of noise reduction upfront isn't going to impact that. As I expect that Pentax has further improved processing over the KP, I'm looking forward to see results in difficult light from the K3 III.
04-29-2021, 12:35 PM   #54
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One interesting thing is pixel shift. Does it produce more issues with the accelerator cameras? I don't know quite how but I expect it should say something about what's going on? You'd have to use rawtherapee I guess to be able to tweak things. hmm might have a look at some online samples from the K-1, K-1 II.
04-29-2021, 01:23 PM - 1 Like   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
The day someone shows me a printed image of the K-1ii that can be told from a printed image of the K-1 is the day I might start getting just a touch worried.
I have made almost 100 prints up to 30x40" and my immediate first complain is about lens quality, no complain about pixel density or pixel sharpness, all files are sharpened for prints output anyway. Only the K200D pictures (10Mpixels) are a little weak for pixel density printed at 16x24", but even at 10Mpixels weak glass is what shows the most in enlargement. My rule of thumb is to not exceed an enlargement of 20 x sensor size: micro4/3 => A3 max, apsc => A2 max, full frame => A1. In my opinion, from experience, it is better to shoot primes lenses if the goal is high quality prints, because primes lenses tends to be more homogeneous across the frame, center sharpness is never a problem in prints.
04-29-2021, 01:25 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Belnan Quote
Lenstip are great, come to think of it does it seem odd that there have been no reviews from major sites in the K3-III? I thought they usually came in sooner than this.
K-3 III is still not there yet in Poland (where Lenstip HQ is located)

Also, like many other gear-focused sites, it drew attention of major players sensing "influencer potential" there. Recently, they mostly test the gear they get from Sony and Sigma and release their reviews on the day the stuff gets announced to the general public (and pre-orders start). Their last review of Pentax lens was in 2013. I'm honestly not sure if they will test the K-3 III this year - they tested GR III 6 months after its release onto the market.
04-29-2021, 01:38 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
mmm... 3 stops better at 3200 over the D500.

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting
just 2,24 eV
04-29-2021, 03:16 PM - 5 Likes   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
I would expect equal treatment from them when reviewing the K3 III.
cough, COUGH, CHOKE.... I was having a cocktail, read this and it went right up my nose....
04-29-2021, 03:52 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
One interesting thing is pixel shift. Does it produce more issues with the accelerator cameras? I don't know quite how but I expect it should say something about what's going on? You'd have to use rawtherapee I guess to be able to tweak things. hmm might have a look at some online samples from the K-1, K-1 II.
Pixel-Shift with KP and K-1 MK2 does not do anything weird at ISO100. It looks to be unaffected. So there is clearly a way to switch off this kind of foul filtering, such mandatory option just is missing from the UI.

--EDIT

Forgot to add that I also experimented at ISO800 Pixel-Shift with K-1 MKII and it also looks fine.

Last edited by MJKoski; 04-30-2021 at 01:20 AM.
04-29-2021, 05:31 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
How am I supposed to use floodlights when I'm pursuing wildlife on a cloudy evening?
You won't be anywhere near ISO 6400!
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