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03-10-2007, 12:42 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I won't go into a major diatribe about the pro's and con's of JPEG vs RAW
OK, slacker, I'll do it!

If you are taking picnic snapshots, jpeg might just be a way to go but if you want to make a decent photograph, shoot RAW. Just like we used to compare different developers and films, we now can compare different RAW converters (I use ACR exclusively, but I was a Dektol freak in the film days.......)

So don't even worry about a camera's jpeg processing! Personally, I think Canon overdoes it but that's their prerogative.

If you want to make a real photograph, give yourself all the latitude that you can get. Shoot RAW.

<still scrubbing Dektol stains off fingers>

03-10-2007, 02:53 PM   #17
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To begin with...

I almost posted an apology for adding some fuel to the jpeg fire with my post, but the three times I tried to craft it, the words were so insincere that I knew the truth is, I'm not sorry for re-stating what's so obvious.

Pentax could and should improve the stock jpeg output so that it is as close to untinkered with RAW as possible... all of us here, and all of us worldwide who own Pentax equipment WANT to see Pentax succeed and prosper, the better they do, the better we do. Get rid of the "smooth film-like" nonsense, or at least, make it an option, with sharper jpegs as the default mode (or visa-versa), then EVERYONE would be happy and the controversy would die.

What worries me is that the PRIDE-FULL-NESS it requires to disregard, kinda everybody, bodes bad news in the future... a business should be not only able to, but interested in, accommodating their customer base... to refuse to respond to customer input borders on commercial fascism... it's the Henry Ford approach to car making... "you can have it in any color you want... as long as its black"

…and because I forgot to say it, the DC review was intelligent, balanced, and overall rather outstanding... well done Jeff!

PS to the sock-puppets among us: you only make us argue louder when you deny the obvious, and insist on complicity with stupidity.

...and what is a sock-puppet; a sock puppet is a company man that:

Masquerades as a consumer,
Who posts glowing reviews for their stuff,
Criticizes any criticism as trolling
Slams other companies and their products, on those other companies forums.

Puppets are worse than trolls; they are the thought police and the enemy of truth in online community.

Last edited by MJS; 03-12-2007 at 08:20 AM.
03-10-2007, 04:18 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
Why not have STARTED with a sweet spot???
Because that's what the USER setting is for.
03-10-2007, 05:03 PM   #19
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JPEG-RAW Debate

QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
I almost posted an apology for adding some fuel to the jpeg fire with my post, but the three times I tried to craft it, the words were so insincere that I knew the truth is, I'm not sorry for re-stating what's so obvious.

Pentax could and should improve the stock jpeg output so that it is as close to untinkered with RAW as possible... all of us here, and all of us worldwide who own Pentax equipment WANT to see Pentax succeed and prosper, the better they do, the better we do. Get rid of the "smooth film-like" nonsense, or at least, make it an option, with sharper jpegs as the default mode (or visa-versa), then EVERYONE would be happy and the controversy would die.

What worries me is that the PRIDE-FULL-NESS it requires to disregard, kinda everybody, bodes bad news in the future... a business should be not only able to, but interested in, accommodating their customer base... to refuse to respond to customer input borders on commercial fascism... it's the Henry Ford approach to car making... "you can have it in any color you want... as long as its black"

…and because I forgot to say it, the DC review was intelligent, balance, and overall outstanding... well done Jeff!

PS to the sock-puppets among us: you only make us argue louder when you deny the obvious, and insist on complicity with stupidity.

...and what is a sock-puppet; a sock puppet is a company man, masquerading as a consumer, who posts glowing reviews for their stuff, criticize any criticism as trolling; and slam other companies and their products, on those other companies forums. Puppets are worse than trolls; they are the thought police and the enemy of truth in online community. In fact, MOST of the CNET folks are puppets on one side or another; but that's another topic... here endeth the rant
I tend to agree that Pentax could find a way to employ a very simple adjustment in a firmaware update that would set the default parameters to a JPEG output that is neither too oversharpened nor to soft. Perhaps they might use the native RAW output as their barometer. That might be considered their default setting. Induviduals who haven't the time nor the inclination to have to go through a specific process to set up their images for JPEG's would be instantly gratified. Those induviduals wishing to use RAW or to tweak their own user specific JPEG's could also do so if desired. People who are using RAW generally have a more in depth understanding of the process and the reasons for using this option, as do those who understand the subtle but important differences between sRGB and Adobe RGB. I do think that a more balanced JPEG as a starting point could resolve many of the issues expressed here and on other forums.

03-10-2007, 07:32 PM   #20
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Not to beat a dead horse, but to me the raw + jpeg in pentax software are practically identical with jpeg at default setting at 100% crop neither one has been sharpened. This would be fine if the software had any jpeg adjustment tools like usm and tone curve etc. I open them in my old psp7 as it won't do raw or i'd have to convert the raw to tiff (huge files) to use it. I find photolab crashes on me too much, guess I need some good software.
tom
03-10-2007, 07:52 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I tend to agree that Pentax could find a way to employ a very simple adjustment in a firmaware update that would set the default parameters to a JPEG output that is neither too oversharpened nor to soft. Perhaps they might use the native RAW output as their barometer. That might be considered their default setting. Induviduals who haven't the time nor the inclination to have to go through a specific process to set up their images for JPEG's would be instantly gratified.

Ben's ideas and MJS's ideas are great. The key thing is whatever level Pentax sets the sharpening default to - the problem is the sharpness tweaking ability we are given is not USM or acutance sharpening. It is undershoot - which doesn't play well with PP USM, and doesn't really ever let us get the most out of the files. We need the choice of alternate adjustable edge sharpening in the menu. Custom Menu-- Default Sharpening: 1 Edge Sharpening: 2

Using RAW output as the barometer is an especially phenomenal idea. A firmware update to the jpeg processing algorithm quality to begin with using RAW as a guide is exactly the point. The edge sharpening option would be just a tweaking utility.

Pentax should take these jpeg suggestions seriously because even though RAW is preferred (especially in professional use), other times there is a workflow/ time constraint where you need to rely on good quality jpegs. For pros doing weddings, this is even more prevalent.

Well, Ben, in an unassuming, unambassadory, polite way, maybe the importance of these ideas in a firmware update could enter into one of your discussions with Pentax...

Larry
03-10-2007, 08:09 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by egarrard Quote
Because that's what the USER setting is for.
So FLAT, DULL, images that lack EDGE SHARPNESS are the default setting eh... Well that's brilliance at work...

So if the Pentax were a restaurant, and the K10 were a meal, by your logic, the food would be served unseasoned, b/c that's what table salt is for.
03-10-2007, 08:18 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by wilson46 Quote
Most reviews for this product are positive. You may want to read them all from one page. Just compare what different experts are saying about it.

SmartRatings - Reviews & Ratings for Pentax K10D SLR Digital Camera
From PopPhoto:

Image Quality: Extremely accurate skin tones, but the magenta cast in shadows distracted from generally accurate colors. Saturation was a bit too high in magenta flowers, and image showed higher contrast than optimum. Shadow detail was high but there were hot spots on bright areas. Resolution and image detail were better than Canon, but behind Nikon and Sony. Most defects absent in RAW DNG files.

So, if the defects are absent in RAW DNG, then it's the programming not the camera at fault... an easy fix with firmware; IF the brainiac who is responsible for can put his pride aside, and learn by committe, and community, that the K10D is capable of better imaging.

03-10-2007, 11:49 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
So FLAT, DULL, images that lack EDGE SHARPNESS are the default setting eh... Well that's brilliance at work...

So if the Pentax were a restaurant, and the K10 were a meal, by your logic, the food would be served unseasoned, b/c that's what table salt is for.
Using your analogy, and my impression of the K10D in the store, I think what is really needed is more pepper.

I think you will agree, it's salty enough already - all the hardware is there. The jpegs just need to be more "spicy" - hence, more pepper. I too am hoping that "the chef" realizes the oversight.

Welcome to the forums! Enough ranting...more photos!

To the OP - A great, well balanced review!
03-11-2007, 01:16 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
So if the Pentax were a restaurant, and the K10 were a meal, by your logic, the food would be served unseasoned, b/c that's what table salt is for.
Or when they serve your pasta they let you put the parmesan cheese on yourself, as some prefer it, some don't and those that do like different amounts...

These analogies are fun ;-)
03-11-2007, 01:17 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
From PopPhoto:

Image Quality: Extremely accurate skin tones, but the magenta cast in shadows distracted from generally accurate colors. Saturation was a bit too high in magenta flowers, and image showed higher contrast than optimum. Shadow detail was high but there were hot spots on bright areas. Resolution and image detail were better than Canon, but behind Nikon and Sony. Most defects absent in RAW DNG files.

So, if the defects are absent in RAW DNG, then it's the programming not the camera at fault... an easy fix with firmware; IF the brainiac who is responsible for can put his pride aside, and learn by committe, and community, that the K10D is capable of better imaging.
So do you agree the K10d JPEGs are better than Canon produces?
03-11-2007, 05:10 AM   #27
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insult to injury.

QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
So do you agree the K10d JPEGs are better than Canon produces?
I agree that the K10D has the capacity to produce better jpegs than any camera in it's class... and at least one that outclasses it (the D200).

What frustrates so many of us, is that it doesn't.

Sure shooting RAW is best, but workflow does not always allow for the time it takes to do that with 300+ images.
Besides, I shouldn't need to shoot RAW to optimize the camera's output... geesh.

The imaging defects that every major reviewer has noted in jpeg output, are absent in RAW DNG; it's the programming not the camera at fault... an easy fix with firmware. Ben is right on the money when he writes, “Perhaps they might use the native RAW output as their barometer. That could be considered a default setting. Individuals who haven't the time nor the inclination to have to go through a specific process to set up their images for JPEG's would be instantly gratified. Those wishing to use RAW or to tweak their own user specific JPEG's could also do so if desired.

If personal preference is the issue, then let us, as K10 owners choose native RAW output as our jpeg setting.
In the time it takes to download the firmware, the controversy would be over.

But it will never end so long as:

A. There is no firmware to address what every major reviewer describes as a flaw.

B. Sock-puppets keep pretending the jpegs are as good as they can be, they're not and everyone seems to know that except Pentax... and I suspect most at Pentax know it too, and that there's one senior citizen blocking them perfecting a damn good camera.

To achieve the results that I want, I have to shoot RAW.

The closest facsimile to RAW I’ve found is:
set to BRIGHT,
-1 Saturation,
+2 Sharpness,
+1 Contrast.

It's been set this way since I bought the camera... and I got mine as a VERY early adopter.

This is my first Pentax since the 80's, so lens-wise, I upgraded to two primes, 31mm LTD and 77mm LTD. I'm telling you, considering my lenses, it's hard to shoot any sharper than I do, and yet my jpegs could be sharper.

The reason those of us who talk about edge sharpness, plead so long and so loudly, is because we like the camera, and we know it is capable of better than the native programming. And the sock-puppet reactions to our request for a better algorithm just add insult to injury.

Last edited by MJS; 03-11-2007 at 06:21 AM.
03-11-2007, 06:06 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Ben's ideas and MJS's ideas are great. The key thing is whatever level Pentax sets the sharpening default to - the problem is the sharpness tweaking ability we are given is not USM or acutance sharpening. It is undershoot - which doesn't play well with PP USM, and doesn't really ever let us get the most out of the files. We need the choice of alternate adjustable edge sharpening in the menu. Custom Menu-- Default Sharpening: 1 Edge Sharpening: 2

Using RAW output as the barometer is an especially phenomenal idea. A firmware update to the jpeg processing algorithm quality to begin with using RAW as a guide is exactly the point. The edge sharpening option would be just a tweaking utility.

Pentax should take these jpeg suggestions seriously because even though RAW is preferred (especially in professional use), other times there is a workflow/ time constraint where you need to rely on good quality jpegs. For pros doing weddings, this is even more prevalent.

Well, Ben, in an unassuming, unambassadory, polite way, maybe the importance of these ideas in a firmware update could enter into one of your discussions with Pentax...

Larry
Hello Larry;

I have already asked Mr.Belmadi at Pentax France to send my suggestion on to the head office.

Ben
03-11-2007, 06:12 AM   #29
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Sent to Pentax

QuoteOriginally posted by MJS Quote
I agree that the K10D has the capacity to produce better jpegs than any camera in it's class... and at least one that outclasses it (the D200).

What frustrates so many of us, is without shooting RAW, it doesn't.

Ben is right, shooting RAW is best, but workflow does not always allow for the time it takes to do that with 300+ images. Besides, I shouldn't need to shoot RAW to optimize the camera's output... geesh.

The imaging defects that every major reviewer has noted in jpeg output, are absent in RAW DNG; it's the programming not the camera at fault... an easy fix with firmware. Ben is right on the money when he writes, “Perhaps they might use the native RAW output as their barometer. That could be considered a default setting. Individuals who haven't the time nor the inclination to have to go through a specific process to set up their images for JPEG's would be instantly gratified. Those wishing to use RAW or to tweak their own user specific JPEG's could also do so if desired.

If personal preference is the issue, then let us, as K10 owners choose our native RAW output as our jpeg setting. In the time it takes to download the firmware, the controversy would be over.

But it will never end so long as:

A. There is no firmware to address what every major reviewer describes as a flaw.

B. Sock-puppets keep pretending the jpegs are as good as they can be, they're not and everyone seems to know that except Pentax... and I suspect most at Pentax know it too, and that there's one senior citizen blocking them perfecting a damn good camera.

To achieve the results that I want, I have to shoot RAW; the closest facsimile to RAW output I’ve found is set to BRIGHT, -1 Saturation, +2 Sharpness, +1 Contrast. It's been set this way since I bought the camera... and I got mine as a VERY early adopter.

This is my first Pentax since the 80's, so lens-wise, I upgraded to two primes, 31mm LTD and 77mm LTD. I'm telling you, no one shoots sharper than me, and my jpegs could be sharper.

The reason those of us who talk about edge sharpness, plead so long and so loudly, is because we like the camera, and we know it is capable of better than the native programming. And the sock-puppet reactions to our request for a better algorithm just add insult to injury.
I hope you don't mind my doing so, but I sent these observations of yours to Pentax France asking them to send to Head Office in Europe and Japan.
03-11-2007, 07:29 AM   #30
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in fact it's an honor and a privilege

QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I hope you don't mind my doing so, but I sent these observations of yours to Pentax France asking them to send to Head Office in Europe and Japan.
I don't mind at all Ben... in fact it's an honor and a privilege.

Although it couldn't be the first time they've heard this, and your suggestion is the easiest and most logical.
Who knows, like grains of sand on a scale, maybe the balance will finally tip... besides, that's a great reason for me to shut up and stop ranting, thank you.

Last edited by MJS; 03-11-2007 at 07:49 AM.
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